Mid-Bass Driver Selection

[Sencheezy 689]

Hello All,

 

I am currently in search for a really good Mid-Bass Driver. My budget is around 200$ per, it "could" be stretched a little higher if needed. I currently am a competitor for the SPL side of things, but for this upcoming season, I am also wanting to compete in SQ. I am not wanting to become a world champion per-say, but I would like to earn a respectable score. Yes I do understand how judgmental SQ can be, as it's all person preference, as well as a judge to judge scoring. For this portion of my audio system, I would like to ignore my SPL installation, and to strictly concentrate on the SQ aspect. 

 

I am currently and will like to continually run an 2 way active system.  The equipment that I currently have;

 

Image Dynamics Ultra Mini Horns build by Eric Stevens. 100w RMS, 8 ohm impedance, 110 Sensitivity, Recommended Crossover Points: 600-2000 Hz

Zed Audio Leviathan. 300x6 @2ohms, 600x3 @4ohms, 2 ohm stable

 

To move forward in this SQ project, I will need a few additional equipment, including an RTA, RTA program, a better Headunit(prefer double din), and some sort of processor. But for now, I am wanting to concentrate on the Mid-Bass Selection. 

 

I have decided that I would like to utilize an 12" driver. Now again, please keep in mind that I am not looking to win a championship, just to put up an respectable number. In MECA, they use a 1-100 scale grading system. I took some measurements and they are as follow. 30" Width, 13" Height(rear half of door)/16" Height(front half of door), ~7" Depth(rear half of door)/~9" Depth(front half of door). ~2cuft These measurements are pretty rough, and are on the conservative side. There is more space to be had but would involve more measuring.

 

To sum it up, I am looking for suggestions for a 12" driver that has a high xmax(15mm or better), good sensitivity(88 or better), again, these are blending in with the horns, a high rms value(200rms or better), reasonable space requirement and/or can play IB, and lastly, a relatively flat frequency response. Now, I do understand that everything comes with some sort of sacrifice, I am simply listing some of my personal preference in this driver selection. I should also mention that I do plan on playing the horns from 800hz to 20khz. If I utilize a 24db slope or better, and with proper testing, these can play down as low as 600hz. So this midbass selection will have to play at least up to that point, if not, then I would use the processing to bridge that gap as closely as possible. And I guess I would like these to play as low as 40hz?

 

Some early candidates include: 

Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm

Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax

Eminence Delta-12LFA 12" Low Frequency Driver

 

 

 

 

If there is anything I left out, please let me know. And thanks.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

A 12 inch driver will not play high enough to blend with tweeters.  

[///M5 2,833]

That and IMO you are looking for the wrong things. In general a low xmax driver will sound much better in a 2 way. I still wouldn't do a 12 2 way though.

The real question is why a 12? Seems to me you need something that plays from 50-1kHz or so. A 12 will never do that and off axis it is even hard for an 8.

[Sencheezy 689]

A 12 inch driver will not play high enough to blend with tweeters.  

 

Looking at this FR Graph, it seems that this Driver can play up to that high with the aid of processing.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-512-dayton-audio-um12-22-specifications.pdf

[Sencheezy 689]

That and IMO you are looking for the wrong things. In general a low xmax driver will sound much better in a 2 way. I still wouldn't do a 12 2 way though.

The real question is why a 12? Seems to me you need something that plays from 50-1kHz or so. A 12 will never do that and off axis it is even hard for an 8.

 

And that's exactly why I made this thread. Looking for input here, and direction, for which I need to follow. I chose a 12, because it's the largest driver I can fit in my door. Going back to the "not wanting to win championship" statment. This is still, a very much daily driver, so being able to keep up the volume is extremely important to me, wether it be for showing out for friends, or for competition. And yes, I mentioned previously that I would like something that plays from 40 or 50hz to 600hz or 800hz. This being depicted by how low I want the horns to play.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Be ready to build one stout set of doors. I personally would suggest looking for a neo driver as weight will add up quick. 

[Sencheezy 689]

That and IMO you are looking for the wrong things. In general a low xmax driver will sound much better in a 2 way. I still wouldn't do a 12 2 way though.

The real question is why a 12? Seems to me you need something that plays from 50-1kHz or so. A 12 will never do that and off axis it is even hard for an 8.

 

If I stick with a smaller single driver, a 6.5" or 8", I'm afraid it won't have the volume to keep up with for what I'm looking for. I was hoping that, with the driver being so near to the horns, that hopefully that would aid me in staging. Just as many advised the ideal location for a midbass would be in the floorboard far underneath the dash as possible.

[Sencheezy 689]

Be ready to build one stout set of doors. I personally would suggest looking for a neo driver as weight will add up quick. 

 

Yes, this has been taken into consideration. 

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

 

Quite a few 12" drivers on this site. 

 

[Sencheezy 689]

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

 

Quite a few 12" drivers on this site. 

 

 

Thanks! I will check that out now.

[jcarter1885 995]

Have you thought about running these B&C 10NW64, I rememer Sir-Lancelot having great success with these awhile back? I would try to go with a 10" or maybe a pair of 8''s. I know running two of the same speakers is not ideal but may give you what your looking for.

 

 

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

 

Quite a few 12" drivers on this site. 

 

 

Thanks! I will check that out now.

 

Also check out parts-express.com and madisound.com for other speaker options as well. 

Edited January 5, 2014 by jay-cee

[Sencheezy 689]

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

 

Quite a few 12" drivers on this site. 

 

Looks to have a lot of great candidates! 

http://www.usspeaker.com/delta%20lite2512II-1.htm

First one I clicked on looks promising already!

[Sencheezy 689]

Have you thought about running these B&C 10NW64, I rememer Sir-Lancelot having great success with these awhile back? I would try to go with a 10" or maybe a pair of 8''s. I know running two of the same speakers is not ideal but may give you what your looking for.

 

 

 

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

 

Quite a few 12" drivers on this site. 

 

 

Thanks! I will check that out now.

 

Also check out parts-express.com and madisound.com for other speaker options as well. 

 

Yeah! I actually do remember. I will look more into those.

 

And yeah, I'm familiar with both those sites, was just hoping to get more input from others. 

[Impious 1,476]

You are looking at 12" subwoofers. Not going to be the ideal driver for your goals, generally speaking. Pro audio is going to be where you need to look for a large driver that can play relatively high.

That said I would probably suggest you step down to a 10" driver. You will probably want to run them in an enclosure to avoid massive door rattles, and pro audio drivers aren't going to play well with sealed enclosures or IB. So to find a driver that will work reasonably well in a sealed enclosure that might fit in your door I'd step down in size some. Not to mention it will open up the candidates quite a bit.

[Sencheezy 689]

You are looking at 12" subwoofers. Not going to be the ideal driver for your goals, generally speaking. Pro audio is going to be where you need to look for a large driver that can play relatively high.

That said I would probably suggest you step down to a 10" driver. You will probably want to run them in an enclosure to avoid massive door rattles, and pro audio drivers aren't going to play well with sealed enclosures or IB. So to find a driver that will work reasonably well in a sealed enclosure that might fit in your door I'd step down in size some. Not to mention it will open up the candidates quite a bit.

 

Have any immediate suggestions?

[Sencheezy 689]

So overall, I take it that, I'm going to find a rough time looking for a 12" driver that can play 40hz-600hz with a reasonable response? Is that correct?

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

you can't look at those response graph and expect them to look like that once installed.  Those responses are on axis with one watt of power.  Once off axis and induction with proper power response will fall off greatly.  Those responses are only a guideline when on axis one meter away.  Vance did a review with Voice Coil a while back on the Ultimax but I can't find the mag. 

[Sencheezy 689]

you can't look at those response graph and expect them to look like that once installed.  Those responses are on axis with one watt of power.  Once off axis and induction with proper power response will fall off greatly.  Those responses are only a guideline when on axis one meter away.  Vance did a review with Voice Coil a while back on the Ultimax but I can't find the mag. 

ohhh, so I really shouldn't look at those graphs a reference or a good representation of what to expect installed in my vehicle?

 

For example, I look at this driver:

 

http://www.usspeaker.com/ciare%201200sw-1.htm

 

Now, by manufacture, it recommends 20hz-200hz. But looking at the graph, it "seems" to play relatively well up into about 1khz. 

So, just because it looks good on the graph, doesn't mean it plays good? Is that what you're saying?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

A 12" can be done and play up to 500-600hz no problem. It will start beaming much more above that though. I have an older thread that go's through the things to consider. 

[Sencheezy 689]

A 12" can be done and play up to 500-600hz no problem. It will start beaming much more above that though. I have an older thread that go's through the things to consider. 

 

Do you have a link sir?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/42566-help-choosing-a-10-inch-midbass-driver/

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

you can't look at those response graph and expect them to look like that once installed.  Those responses are on axis with one watt of power.  Once off axis and induction with proper power response will fall off greatly.  Those responses are only a guideline when on axis one meter away.  Vance did a review with Voice Coil a while back on the Ultimax but I can't find the mag. 

ohhh, so I really shouldn't look at those graphs a reference or a good representation of what to expect installed in my vehicle?

 

For example, I look at this driver:

 

http://www.usspeaker.com/ciare%201200sw-1.htm

 

Now, by manufacture, it recommends 20hz-200hz. But looking at the graph, it "seems" to play relatively well up into about 1khz. 

So, just because it looks good on the graph, doesn't mean it plays good? Is that what you're saying?

No, that response is only when the driver is facing directly in front of you.  And this is with any driver.  This normally isn't a problem with home audio as the drivers are more or less in front of you.

[Sencheezy 689]

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/42566-help-choosing-a-10-inch-midbass-driver/

 

Thanks. I will take a look into this.

[Sencheezy 689]

 

you can't look at those response graph and expect them to look like that once installed.  Those responses are on axis with one watt of power.  Once off axis and induction with proper power response will fall off greatly.  Those responses are only a guideline when on axis one meter away.  Vance did a review with Voice Coil a while back on the Ultimax but I can't find the mag. 

ohhh, so I really shouldn't look at those graphs a reference or a good representation of what to expect installed in my vehicle?

 

For example, I look at this driver:

 

http://www.usspeaker.com/ciare%201200sw-1.htm

 

Now, by manufacture, it recommends 20hz-200hz. But looking at the graph, it "seems" to play relatively well up into about 1khz. 

So, just because it looks good on the graph, doesn't mean it plays good? Is that what you're saying?

No, that response is only when the driver is facing directly in front of you.  And this is with any driver.  This normally isn't a problem with home audio as the drivers are more or less in front of you.

 

So, then I suppose my next question is, exactly how do I go about choosing the proper and best fitting driver for my goals and application? Do I have to program every single drivers T/s ?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Most important is calculating the drivers self induced roll off. That thread should go over that and then some. Plus will save these guys from repeating a lot of the same info.