More power for mids?

[///M5 2,833]

Your Xcon will definitely overpower your front stage...get used to it. SUPER easy to make bass, not so easy to make midbass.

They are great IB. Wasn't an absolute suggestion, just a driver for you to start looking for things that make sense. Beware on sensitivity and power handling ratings as you are currently comparing an apple to an orange.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Last few suggestions before giving up on the current drivers. As mentioned before something in the path of the signal(hu,amp,etc) could be generating nonlinear distortion, that isn't present in the original signal. Would explain the weird extra tone. So would involve testing the speakers hooked to a different system and/or swap one piece of equipment at a time if is the cause.

IIRC you had kick pods. Possibly try the mids in those and see if it helps the reflections and such.

As it would suck to buy new equipment have the same problem, I'm trying to think of any other plausible faults.

[///M5 2,833]

They are in pods? I thought doors, I'd inspect the pods and see if you can vent them into the fenders as well. Could be squashing your midbass by cramping the drivers.

[hdrox88 142]

They are in the doors, I mentioned in an earlier post that I had pods on hand.

[hdrox88 142]

I have ruled out the HU and amp as the culprit for the irritant I am fighting. I hooked my ipad up to the amp with a RCA to 3.5mm cable. It wasn't as easy to hear since the mid was getting full range signal but it was still there. I swapped the zapco for a JL 300/4 and the annoying sound was there just the same. That leaves source material, speaker wire, and speakers, though I'm fairly confident speaker wire wouldn't cause such a problem. 12ga. ofc is a pretty standard wire.

[jcarter1885 995]

Could have metal shavings stuck on the driver, a common problem with those mids. I believe their are videos on youtube about it, remember it from my days on the ID forum. Also check your cones, they tend to warp as well causing problems.

Edited July 8, 2014 by jay-cee

[hdrox88 142]

One of the phase plugs was rolling around in the box when I got them and one of the cones got a small, almost unnoticeable dent. I never thought anything of it. Not sure about warping, but when looking at the driver straight on it looks as if something is misaligned. The phase plug does not look centered compared to the cone/coil.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I bought the Seas U18's a few months back for a very similar application. I have been busy on another project though so I haven't had time to install them yet. May be worth looking at. They should have a little better off axis response, and reach on the top end too. Great build quality also.

I would hope others might make some suggestions too as collectively they have tried lots of drivers.

[///M5 2,833]

The U's are gorgeous.

Just shot this a few minutes ago. 7's in order of ease of integration in a car (left is easy):

Crappy cell phone pic, but hey J's post just made me think.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

As what you described as the irritation is most likely from harmonic distortion introduced by the actual driver itself that's coloring the sound. Sean's post got me thinking too. The driver that is harder to tune may be the most sterile and have the least amount of coloring. 

 

Think of it like this, if your immediately impressed with the sound of a set of speakers, chances are there is something wrong with them. This sounds counter intuitive, but the speakers that impressed you are most likely coloring the sound by adding their own character to the sound. When a speaker adds something of its own, it masks the original material. It might sound good at first, but you will get listener fatigue quickly. (in like 15 min, lol)

 

Which brings me to another thought in regards to tuning. Another suggestion is to only change settings right when you start each day, as you will get listener fatigue rather quickly. Jam those settings until the next time you get in the car, or the next day.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

You can change the frequency response of a driver after its installed, BUT you can't change the harmonic distortion.

[hdrox88 142]

The U's are gorgeous.

Just shot this a few minutes ago. 7's in order of ease of integration in a car (left is easy):

Crappy cell phone pic, but hey J's post just made me think.

Lets see how close I can get, lol

 

1. Seas CA?

2. Seas U?

3. ?

4. Alpine SPX?

5. Seas W?

 

I only looked up the U.

 

J, I think you are on to something. What you just described makes me feel like you nailed it on the head. At first, I was blown away by these things. As time went on and up til now I get more and more disgusted with them. More-so in the last few weeks. Apparently, harmonic distortion is plaguing me here as no matter what I do I can't get rid of the irritation. I would say that is probably my only real complaint at this point. Every time a voice hits a higher note, I wince. Sometimes mid to high notes on elec guitar will have a strange sound, almost like an echo to it, or as if it were two of them trying to play the same thing at the same time. It makes rock music less than enjoyable when I hear it.

 

What does one look for at this point? I've been surfing the Madisound site and majority of the response plots look fairly close to one another to me. Some interesting stuff on parts express, though I have no idea what I am really looking at.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

A good place to start if you REALLY wants to know what your looking at.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/

 

Otherwise could make a list of suggestions.

 

The way the brain preserves and processes sound is a pretty cool subject.

 

Found this for you too on that site.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/nonlinear.html

 

QUOTED from the link above. 

Quite to the point, most listening tests are not long enough. Listening fatigue can take a long time to set in, sometimes more than an hour. Once it does set in, your brain will have learned what listening fatigue sounds like for that particular speaker. Then with each subsequent listening session, the listening fatigue sets in faster as your memory of that speaker's sound returns. If it's bad enough, it will get to a point where you can't stand it and you avoid listening altogether.

[///M5 2,833]

You missed the Dayton and the SPX is actually the Scan Rev but more or less the same as they were not built by Alpine.

I am also worried you are getting cone breakup. Can't remember as I last listened to those drivers along time ago...but wasn't impressed.

[///M5 2,833]

Don't remember as well. Do the mids sound okay to you if you only have them play up to 1.2kHz or so?

[hdrox88 142]

I've just been looking through the first link that J just posted and recognized the scanspeak. I didn't spend much time with music at 1.25khz on the xover. When I was playing with tones, 800hz and 1250hz really made the irritation stand out big time. It was actually slightly painful. I can hear it in some of the nearby frequencies as well, but that is where it got really bad.

 

Ha, I just realized I used 1.25khz and 1250hz, don't mind me.

Edited July 9, 2014 by hdrox88

[hdrox88 142]

I've read through the two links to zaph to the best of my abilities and there are several drivers that stand out in that review group. I'll list them here in hopes of narrowing them down or getting other suggestions in places to look. I'm not afraid of spending time tuning, just so long as I have slim-to-none of that harmonic distortion to deal with.

 

1. Seas CA18RNX - Initial suggestion and looks like a great bang for the buck with a pretty wide response range.
2. Seas ER18RNX - Seems like a possible slight upgrade to the CA18.
3. Seas L18RNX - Considering the metal cone after reading this review: http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.html and I'm pairing with a tweet that can play fairly low.
4. Seas W18NX - Most expensive in the group, but seems like a really nice driver if it's truly a "get what you pay for" situation.
5. ScanSpeak 18W8531G - Pricey, but looks like a very well rounded driver with "very low HD."
6. 18Sound 6ND430 - Midbass seems a pinch lacking compared to the others, though that may be the compromise for the output I'm looking for.
7. Usher 8945P - Looks great for the price if you can find it available.

[jcarter1885 995]

I heard good things about those Usher drivers, even though they have a breakup thats needs eq'ing. I have been eyeing those 18sound drivers myself and they are at the top of my list if I stick with 6-7" drivers. Zaphaudio really breaks things down for an individual shopping for mids.

[hdrox88 142]

That site is a gold mine if you have a halfway decent understanding of what you are looking at. The in-depth review on the L18 was great and has me considering a driver I probably would have overlooked.

[hdrox88 142]

My list has changed and narrowed slightly. I removed some for price and lack of availability concerns and added another that I stumbled onto.

 

New list in order of interest according to reading specs and reviews:

 

1. Seas ER18RNX - This has my attention right now after everything I have been reading about them. Only concern with this driver is dealing with the elements as I don't think it has any coating. AZ heat can get extreme in the car, and monsoon season is upon us. Buckets of water can be flowing through a door in a flash storm here. Scotchguard spray may be useful here?

2. Seas L18RNX - Needing LPed at 2khz isn't an issue with my XS28s. The low-mid and mid-bass detail people praise these for is pulling at me considering the amount of rock I listen to.

3. Seas CA18RNX - Pulling a close 3rd on the list due to wide range and neutral, easy to tune characteristics.

4. Aurum Cantus AC165/50CK - Chinese made has me a little worried. Larger voice coil and higher power handling is promising, as well as zaph testing on this driver.

[///M5 2,833]

I'd throw the Aurum out, I also think you are misrepresenting the XS. They are potentially part of the problem. Assuming they can play low won't help. ER or CA would be choice. Slightly more midbass on the CA and better midrange on the ER. Sort of sad I sold my ER's.

[hdrox88 142]

Would you happen to recall if there was any type of coating on the back of the ER? If they are anything better than the midbass of the XS65 I am pretty much sold on them. I am just worried about them falling apart quickly if they aren't protected in the door.

[lithium 358]

my sls 8s (treated paper cone ) were in the doors of my previous car for a few years and haven't failed yet. Im re-installing them with some additional protection this time around. 

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-38fdFVYlUUh/g_762/Foam-Speaker-Baffles.html 

 

had to modify the rear of section of the foam so they would vent into the door. 

[hdrox88 142]

When you say they were treated, does that mean there was actually a coating on them to help? I am not sure about the ER in question here.

[lithium 358]

When you say they were treated, does that mean there was actually a coating on them to help? I am not sure about the ER in question here.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/peerless-830667-8-paper-cone-sls-subwoofer--264-1102

 

no its actually coated from factory. 

[hdrox88 142]

That's what I figured. The only thing mentioned about the ER is "edge coated" so I am unsure of the durability when exposed to the environment in a door.