Senseless audio ramblings.........

[An-i-no 86]

Clipping won't blow it, clipping blows nothing. Overpowering does.

Half truth. Clipping dramatically increases the average power which blows stuff.

It's like saying texting while driving kills people. That sentence in itself is dumb as a mofo. What, is your cell phone gonna explode in your face? No Car crashes kill people BUT texting causes the driver to be distracted which causes car crashes...you see where I'm going with this. A leads to B, B leads to C,therefore A leads to C. Sure there is a point in there that isn't absolute. Not all texting drivers have wrecks, and not all clipping amps blw subwoofers...but it's still no bueno.

If whoever you're talking to doesn't understand that "Clipping increases the power blah blah" then they see "Clipping won't blow it, clipping blows nothing" then they think "well my amp is clipping but clipping doesn't blow anything so it's just fine" and them poof, bye bye sub. Not saying that you're wrong, cuz you aren't, but you say that a lot without explaining anything...which defeats the purpose of saying it.

Dramatically...not really. Please read: http://www.forceaudio.com/featured-articles/the-clipping-effect-test/

I've read it before, and maybe dramatically was the wrong word to use but when you have an amplifier that is capable of 1200 watts and two subwoofers that can safely handle 600wrms, how much extra power do you need to kill them? Realistically?

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Speaking from the other side of the table, when it comes to sub woofer ratings (as it was one of the things mentioned), Nick and I reference something called DAF. It is something many quality brands are forced to do that don't have the margins many other brands do. You have to dial in a little extra room for user error when it comes to what information you present to the public. Since I can speak on it directly, we rate our wonderful Xcon at 1750 watts root mean square (the actual use of RMS can be a different topic), but are there people putting 2500 watts to the Xcon in normal installs with no signs of stress, failure or thermal limitations? Yes, that is because they know how to properly set their amplifier (and/or processor) and head unit settings, know when to pay attention to the sub woofer when setting everything, along with place that Xcon in a proper enclosure meant for it. Will you ever see me say yes, put 2500 watts on an Xcon? No, because what I say in public has to be slightly filtered for the DAF. By no means am I claiming I have never blown a driver, far from it, just trying to explain the business side of it.

In terms of the margins, Audiopipe was mentioned before. Now they make an affordable amplifier that budget minded people are liking. Is it a Zapco C2K? Not remotely close, but it is still putting out power. So when it comes to the mindset of price perception, there are many reasons some things are much cheaper to buy and those companies can just toss the amp out and easily give you a new one as a replacement, instead of replacing a torched power supply or flied mosfet. This is due to the fact that even with their much more affordable pricing, they still have quite a margin over brands that cannot just throw you a new one when the original fails or gets torched. I am not saying Audiopipe amplifiers are bad at all, just trying to introduce the idea about the relative costs of what you are buying and truly why somethings are so much cheaper.

[Julian 641]

Clipping won't blow it, clipping blows nothing. Overpowering does.

Half truth. Clipping dramatically increases the average power which blows stuff.

It's like saying texting while driving kills people. That sentence in itself is dumb as a mofo. What, is your cell phone gonna explode in your face? No Car crashes kill people BUT texting causes the driver to be distracted which causes car crashes...you see where I'm going with this. A leads to B, B leads to C,therefore A leads to C. Sure there is a point in there that isn't absolute. Not all texting drivers have wrecks, and not all clipping amps blw subwoofers...but it's still no bueno.

If whoever you're talking to doesn't understand that "Clipping increases the power blah blah" then they see "Clipping won't blow it, clipping blows nothing" then they think "well my amp is clipping but clipping doesn't blow anything so it's just fine" and them poof, bye bye sub. Not saying that you're wrong, cuz you aren't, but you say that a lot without explaining anything...which defeats the purpose of saying it.

Dramatically...not really. Please read: http://www.forceaudio.com/featured-articles/the-clipping-effect-test/

I've read it before, and maybe dramatically was the wrong word to use but when you have an amplifier that is capable of 1200 watts and two subwoofers that can safely handle 600wrms, how much extra power do you need to kill them? Realistically?

RMS is a very simplistic way to determine the amount of power that you can send to a woofer. There are SO many factors that go into it, I burped my BL on over 5k a few times, no deaths, no nothing.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Clipping won't blow it, clipping blows nothing. Overpowering does.

Half truth. Clipping dramatically increases the average power which blows stuff.

It's like saying texting while driving kills people. That sentence in itself is dumb as a mofo. What, is your cell phone gonna explode in your face? No Car crashes kill people BUT texting causes the driver to be distracted which causes car crashes...you see where I'm going with this. A leads to B, B leads to C,therefore A leads to C. Sure there is a point in there that isn't absolute. Not all texting drivers have wrecks, and not all clipping amps blw subwoofers...but it's still no bueno.

If whoever you're talking to doesn't understand that "Clipping increases the power blah blah" then they see "Clipping won't blow it, clipping blows nothing" then they think "well my amp is clipping but clipping doesn't blow anything so it's just fine" and them poof, bye bye sub. Not saying that you're wrong, cuz you aren't, but you say that a lot without explaining anything...which defeats the purpose of saying it.

Dramatically...not really. Please read: http://www.forceaudio.com/featured-articles/the-clipping-effect-test/

I've read it before, and maybe dramatically was the wrong word to use but when you have an amplifier that is capable of 1200 watts and two subwoofers that can safely handle 600wrms, how much extra power do you need to kill them? Realistically?

Notice who wrote that article, the same 95Honda on the techteam here.

[An-i-no 86]

Quotes were getting to long, I'm replying to Julian.

5k sine wave would melt it. 5K on music would melt it. Hell how many 5k burps would it take?

I'm not trying to disprove anyone. I'm trying to get a simple point across. Of course if you understand how to set a gain knob, how an amplifier works, how to burp, hell when your sub smells funny then what I'm saying is a moot point.

But...if you don't then...your post might lead someone to buy a 5k amp for a BL because they read "over 5k a few times, no deaths, no nothing." Duran's post could lead someone to think that that funny noise (that is audible distortion) is just fine because "Clipping won't blow it, clipping blows nothing." All I asked him to do is explain further. Whether he agrees or disagrees with me doesn't matter. What he put was not enough information for someone who doesn't understand to...understand. That makes his post not very helpful...huh?

I knows Denim...he's a very smart guy. Duran is a very smart guy. Unfortunately we can only read what they type, and even then we can only read the words themselves.

Edited November 30, 2011 by An-i-no

[Julian 641]

Quotes were getting to long, I'm replying to Julian.

5k sine wave would melt it. 5K on music would melt it. Hell how many 5k burps would it take?

I'm not trying to disprove anyone. I'm trying to get a simple point across. Of course if you understand how to set a gain knob, how an amplifier works, how to burp, hell when your sub smells funny then what I'm saying is a moot point.

But...if you don't then...your post might lead someone to buy a 5k amp for a BL because they read "over 5k a few times, no deaths, no nothing." Duran's post could lead someone to think that that funny noise (that is audible distortion) is just fine because "Clipping won't blow it, clipping blows nothing." All I asked him to do is explain further. Whether he agrees or disagrees with me doesn't matter. What he put was not enough information for someone who doesn't understand to...understand. That makes his post not very helpful...huh?

I knows Denim...he's a very smart guy. Duran is a very smart guy. Unfortunately we can only read what they type, and even then we can only read the words themselves.

Ouch

That's an extremely complicated answer, that I feel I'm not fully qualified to answer it.

Audible distortion at sub bass frequencies are out of the range of human hearing up to a certain % (I cannot fully remember the exact percent). SO regardless if you can hear it you are still and probably always going to send clipping to your speakers. So saying all CLIPPING causes death of speakers is like saying all car accidents are fatalities. RMS is a small portion of how much a speaker can handle you can factor in mechanical and thermal and watch how much you can put into a sub-woofer without it burning up.

[An-i-no 86]

Haha no disrespect meant! I think it's around 10% thd. I know its higher than people think it is.

You hit the nail right on the head. Not all clipping blows subs, but to say clipping has nothing to do with blowing a sub is misleading. Back to my previous example, if someone said "texting doesn't kill you, its only when you crash," that would be considered an ignorant statement right?

And of course box size will dictate how a speaker reacts mechanically but outside of how it affects the cooling ability (from cone travel) then a 1500 watt coil is a 1500 watt coil. I guess what it all boils down to is...heat buildup is awful. Whatever term you wanna use for it doesn't matter. Otherwise bass boost would be useful.

[jonbearsmt 919]

that was my point.

[Julian 641]

Haha no disrespect meant! I think it's around 10% thd. I know its higher than people think it is.

You hit the nail right on the head. Not all clipping blows subs, but to say clipping has nothing to do with blowing a sub is misleading. Back to my previous example, if someone said "texting doesn't kill you, its only when you crash," that would be considered an ignorant statement right?

And of course box size will dictate how a speaker reacts mechanically but outside of how it affects the cooling ability (from cone travel) then a 1500 watt coil is a 1500 watt coil. I guess what it all boils down to is...heat buildup is awful. Whatever term you wanna use for it doesn't matter. Otherwise bass boost would be useful.

Clipping doesn't blow subs, overpowering does.

That's basically what we're saying.. inherent clipping does not kill subs!

Overpowering.

[An-i-no 86]

Where does that extra power come from! It ain't magic....

Go turn on bass boost, or max out the gain knob, your choice. It will sound bad, why? The speaker will not last long (if rated at the same power as the amp of course)...why?

Edited November 30, 2011 by An-i-no

[bassahaulic 155]

I can take a 1000rms amp. Turn the gain and bass boost all the way up.

Put it on my ZCON and it will blow. That's not overpowering.

[pmureika 31]

Where does that extra power come from! It ain't magic....

I thought it was.

[jonbearsmt 919]

[An-i-no 86]

I can take a 1000rms amp. Turn the gain and bass boost all the way up.

Put it on my ZCON and it will blow. That's not overpowering.

Stole my words! Sorry I ninja edited you guy above me

[Julian 641]

Where does that extra power come from! It ain't magic....

I thought it was.

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

The best protection for your speakers is to use a little common sense. Just because your head unit's volume control goes to 35, that does not mean you can set it at 34 and expect no clipping. It doesn't even mean that you're going to be safe at 25. Depending on the gain settings, the head unit's tone control settings and the music source, you may be able to drive the system into clipping at virtually any point on the volume control. Listen carefully for distortion and stress.

If your speakers are capable of handling significantly more than your amplifier can produce, driving them with a clipped signal will not likely hurt them.

If the speakers can handle 3 or 4 times the power that your amplifier can produce, there's virtually no way to damage your speakers (no matter how clipped the signal is).

If your speakers are rated for the same power handling as your amplifier is capable of producing cleanly, driving them with a clipped signal for extended periods of time may cause speaker damage and/or premature failure.

If your speakers are rated for the same power handling as your amplifier is capable of producing cleanly, driving them with a square wave signal for extended periods of time will likely cause speaker damage.

[cobra93 47]

This could go on forever.

an-i-no> you need to be more specific.

What kind of failure are you referring to? Thermal or mechanical?

I'll assume you mean thermal.

If it was mechanical, we can probably chalk that up to the nut behind the wheel being loose or getting stupid.

How many times have I read this on this forum,"speakers are stupid, they do exactly what you tell them to do"

I don't know where I read it or who wrote/tested it (it could have been 95honda), but (if the numbers were correct) the percentage of power sent to the sub that's is wasted as heat was staggering.

In the 90% range, which would lead us back to overpowering, not clipping.

I 100%agree with Duran and 95honda on this.

Show some proof/testing to back up your statements.

This isn't subjective.

Back to you original topic.

Would you prefer manufactures rated their subs the other way around and would you buy the underrated or overrated one's?

I think we know the answer to this.

Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it, period.

Edited December 1, 2011 by cobra93

[Angelboy863 21]

what i don't like is certain car audio companies over-rate their products and certain customers really wont know until someone opens the door for them and shows them a whole new side of car audio. I started out thinking kicker was the BEST thing out there. Of course, i didnt know what sundown or ssa was at the time. but i still know people that run around claiming they have huge 5000w+ systems. Of course, im in high school and they are teenagers but these car audio companies really fooled them. they hear my system and become really impressed and they ask how many watts im running. i tell them straight up two amps rated at 400 watts each. when i tell them that they think im joking lol, then i have to explain rms, peak, rated, brands, what they claim, blah blah. sometimes i just refer them to this forum lol. my friends and i are pretty much the only people at my school that know about sundown, fi, dc, ssa, etc. and besides that, people around here like to drive big trucks with pa horns.

[steveo50 3]

yea its a florida thing thats y people hate on florida alot...

[Impious 1,476]

WHICH LEADS ME TO ANOTHER THING!!!!

There are, different kinds of watts. 3000watts from one amp can be COMPLETELY different the 3000w from another amp. Sigh. I guess I'm done.

The ignorance over at SM D is simply amazing. Wow.

100V x 20A = 2000w is very different then 20V x 100A = 2000w.

That's not hard to get is it?

This complaint I'm not entirely following. The difference would be the load the amp is driving....5ohm and .2ohm, respectively. Amps don't choose, it's mathematically determined by Ohms Law. If you are going to output 2000w into a 1ohm load it is going to happen with 44.72V and 44.72A regardless of what amplifier is delivering the power. I think I probably just don't understand the point you're trying to make.

As to the other points brought up in the original post, and comments like this.......

Back to you original topic.

Would you prefer manufactures rated their subs the other way around and would you buy the underrated or overrated one's?

I think we know the answer to this.

I don't think he's complaining as much about manufacturer rating methods as he is the consumers reaction to them. And I would agree. I'll admit, it gets annoying watching the kiddies run around touting about how "underrated" this or that is and why that makes it an amazing product, and how you are "getting more than you paid for" as a result. They don't "accidentally" build a 2kw amp that really outputs 2500w, or a 1500w rated sub that routinely handles 2500w. Yes, the manufacturer rated them the way they did to account for a safety factor (making sure they meet or exceed rated specifications), taking the DAF into consideration and other reasons. But it's not a miracle or "getting more than you paid for". The company knows exactly what the products will do and what thier limits are, they chose to use a different rating for whatever (and admittedly often valid) reason, and those performance levels (and production costs) are accounted for in the cost of the product. You're not getting anything for free and no one (at the company) is surprised when the amp makes 25% more power than it's rated for. That's how they designed it. Which makes it substantially less astonishing than many consumers make it out to be.

[An-i-no 86]

This could go on forever.

an-i-no> you need to be more specific.

What kind of failure are you referring to? Thermal or mechanical?

I'll assume you mean thermal.

If it was mechanical, we can probably chalk that up to the nut behind the wheel being loose or getting stupid.

How many times have I read this on this forum,"speakers are stupid, they do exactly what you tell them to do"

I don't know where I read it or who wrote/tested it (it could have been 95honda), but (if the numbers were correct) the percentage of power sent to the sub that's is wasted as heat was staggering.

In the 90% range, which would lead us back to overpowering, not clipping.

I 100%agree with Duran and 95honda on this.

Show some proof/testing to back up your statements.

This isn't subjective.

I'm referring to thermal failure. I'm not sure what there is to disagree about, clipping increases average power by 50% to 100% (depending on who you ask) which on turn cam quickly cause a woofeor to go poof.

95honda said himself:

"Normalized voltage (AKA amp at full clipping). This shouldn't have been much of a surprise to anyone knowing that a square wave with the same Pk-Pk voltage as a sine will have almost double the power. As you can see on the spreadsheet and graphs, power handling severely dropped when the square wave was applied in this test. Time to failure was cut by a factor of 4 for most drivers. "

Julian just posted in his Bcae quote that:

"If your speakers are rated for the same power handling as your amplifier is capable of producing cleanly, driving them with a clipped signal for extended periods of time may cause speaker damage and/or premature failure. "

I'm only agreeing with what they posted so how can you agree with them and not me?

[Julian 641]

I forgot to mention that regardless if the amp is under/overrated you will not hear the difference.

[NDMstang65 403]

Do you honestly think you can give a 7 year old a can of gas and a pack of matches and expect them to not set the neighborhood on fire?

[cobra93 47]

This could go on forever.

an-i-no> you need to be more specific.

What kind of failure are you referring to? Thermal or mechanical?

I'll assume you mean thermal.

If it was mechanical, we can probably chalk that up to the nut behind the wheel being loose or getting stupid.

How many times have I read this on this forum,"speakers are stupid, they do exactly what you tell them to do"

I don't know where I read it or who wrote/tested it (it could have been 95honda), but (if the numbers were correct) the percentage of power sent to the sub that's is wasted as heat was staggering.

In the 90% range, which would lead us back to overpowering, not clipping.

I 100%agree with Duran and 95honda on this.

Show some proof/testing to back up your statements.

This isn't subjective.

I'm referring to thermal failure. I'm not sure what there is to disagree about, clipping increases average power by 50% to 100% (depending on who you ask) which on turn cam quickly cause a woofeor to go poof.

95honda said himself:

"Normalized voltage (AKA amp at full clipping). This shouldn't have been much of a surprise to anyone knowing that a square wave with the same Pk-Pk voltage as a sine will have almost double the power. As you can see on the spreadsheet and graphs, power handling severely dropped when the square wave was applied in this test. Time to failure was cut by a factor of 4 for most drivers. "

Julian just posted in his Bcae quote that:

"If your speakers are rated for the same power handling as your amplifier is capable of producing cleanly, driving them with a clipped signal for extended periods of time may cause speaker damage and/or premature failure. "

I'm only agreeing with what they posted so how can you agree with them and not me?

What I got from reading what you posted was the fact that clipping was the cause, not the fact that the coil was unable to dissipate the heat. Clipped or not it was too much power for the coil to handle.

This was my point.

I will reread this thread, I may have confused who posted what. If this is the case and it's my misunderstanding I have no issue with retracing my statement that was directed at you.

[cobra93 47]

Impious, I understand what you're saying and I do agree that the uneducated consumer that spreads misinformation is irritating.

I was just stating the other side of bassahaulics original post.

I'd be pissed if I bought a product that was overrated and failed within its advertised parameters.

This is why I do my research before spending my money and I'll spend more if I believe the product will last (no junk).