Welcome to the IHoP

[The enD 467]

OPEL

wow

[The enD 467]

At the sea

I am more of an offroad style when it comes to bikes.

[Kanaworm$ 292]

OPEL

wow

WOW x2!

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

I do like that shifter idea...

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

managed to install a set of windows today...another tomorrow...fun...

[///M5 2,833]

Why does Trek not make there entry level bike a steel frame? It seems logical considering weight isn't a huge factor to an entry level rider, it rides better, cost less, and I doubt an entry level rider would ever notice the flex at the crank slowing them down.

Marketing failure is why they don't make any steel bikes.

[///M5 2,833]

Not saying that no one should ride steel, just seems to me like more of a personal preference and go figure my preference (read "possible bias") is toward aluminum. Better tires and wheels are still more important than frame selection

Your preference is based on the same marketing failure...if not I'd like to hear the reasons.

As for better wheels and tires being more important, then why did you spend the extra on a new aluminum frame?

[cheese20323 13]

So m5 your name is not going to be m5 anymore huh?

[///M5 2,833]

So m5 your name is not going to be m5 anymore huh?

No comment yet.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

[nem 2,019]

Duran you got a pm

I'll email you tomorrow Neal

Sounds good, I hope to have some good information for you.

Oh me too, I need something reliable.

I received nothing today. I will return to work Friday.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Not happy about this rain.

[nem 2,019]

Not happy about this rain.

You and me both!

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

[MKader17 332]

Not saying that no one should ride steel, just seems to me like more of a personal preference and go figure my preference (read "possible bias") is toward aluminum. Better tires and wheels are still more important than frame selection

Your preference is based on the same marketing failure...if not I'd like to hear the reasons.

As for better wheels and tires being more important, then why did you spend the extra on a new aluminum frame?

As far as aluminum to steel we'll just agree to disagree I have big friends that ride aluminum bikes for a long time with no problems, adding extra design to a steel frame to make it sturdy at the crank will only make it even heavier than an aluminum frame (losing 2 pounds doesn't seem like much but that is losing 10% of the total bike weight) and I feel that carbon front forks and a carbon seat stem can make up for any stiffness in the aluminum while still being even lighter.

Quote from earlier...

So as I see it...

Stiffer where is needs to be stiffer.

Flexible CF in the forks/ seat stem increases comfort.

Lighter = Better Performance

More likely to fail but never fails (as far as my research is concerned I have not seen an Al bike fail due to regular use)

Seems win win to me.

Yes, Steel WILL last longer but it seems than many people never reach the life cycle of aluminum frames. I'm riding the bike on the road, it will never see a fall more than 2 inches (Min of rear and front tire elevation).

Yes, Steel MAY be more comfortable than an Aluminum frame but if I'm comfortable on the Al frame what does it matter?

Though i did see in my research it seems that Steel frames are actually more expensive than Aluminum (due to additional craftsmanship required, I'm not totally sold but I'll go with it) . Which makes sense that they do not offer Steel frames. I can promise that if Steel is cheaper AND superior there is no way they would not be available.

[///M5 2,833]

Not happy about this rain.

You and me both!

3x ftmfl

[mccleery3 166]

LMAO! I just watched Cleveland and "KING" James look rediculous and ran out of the gym by Boston.

[///M5 2,833]

Not saying that no one should ride steel, just seems to me like more of a personal preference and go figure my preference (read "possible bias") is toward aluminum. Better tires and wheels are still more important than frame selection

Your preference is based on the same marketing failure...if not I'd like to hear the reasons.

As for better wheels and tires being more important, then why did you spend the extra on a new aluminum frame?

As far as aluminum to steel we'll just agree to disagree I have big friends that ride aluminum bikes for a long time with no problems, adding extra design to a steel frame to make it sturdy at the crank will only make it even heavier than an aluminum frame (losing 2 pounds doesn't seem like much but that is losing 10% of the total bike weight) and I feel that carbon front forks and a carbon seat stem can make up for any stiffness in the aluminum while still being even lighter.

Quote from earlier...

So as I see it...

Stiffer where is needs to be stiffer.

Flexible CF in the forks/ seat stem increases comfort.

Lighter = Better Performance

More likely to fail but never fails (as far as my research is concerned I have not seen an Al bike fail due to regular use)

Seems win win to me.

Yes, Steel WILL last longer but it seems than many people never reach the life cycle of aluminum frames. I'm riding the bike on the road, it will never see a fall more than 2 inches (Min of rear and front tire elevation).

Yes, Steel MAY be more comfortable than an Aluminum frame but if I'm comfortable on the Al frame what does it matter?

Though i did see in my research it seems that Steel frames are actually more expensive than Aluminum (due to additional craftsmanship required, I'm not totally sold but I'll go with it) . Which makes sense that they do not offer Steel frames. I can promise that if Steel is cheaper AND superior there is no way they would not be available.

My steel bike has carbon where yours does btw, and add to that in the seat as well.

If you are concerned about performance why did you buy heavy pedals and shoes that just cost you all the weight savings that you had gained by going aluminum?

As for stiffer where it needs to be stiffer, umm you live in Texas where it is flat. There is no benefit when you aren't climbing. And where there is benefit it is extremely dubious. In order to gain that stiffness you have to lose com pliability by using large diameter tubes which makes things harsh and resonate, which is bad on the frame and your body.

If you are comfortable on your frame, keep adding time in the saddle until you are not and then realize you'd still be if it were steel.

Sounds to me like you swallowed the marketing pill that has ruined most of the bike design firms. Aluminum is cheaper which is why it is made. Cheaper does not generally equal better. Marketing departments have people thinking lighter is better and faster, but it is a completely stupid argument. Where is it easier to lose 500g, in your frame or in your gut? Really simple solution if you are a weight weenie, learn how to eat and exercise to maximize weight loss. The ONLY time I am concerned about weight on a bike is when I want to get the bike airborn. Throwing around a heavy bike is much harder. Doesn't make it jump any worse, but surely gives you a different feeling of confidence when you need to pull something off.

Amusing that you say frames never break. You should spend some time on cycling forums. They break and wear out all the time. How many rims have you destroyed? It really isn't much harder to break a frame.

I guarantee that if you ride a steel bike that is 10lbs heavier than your aluminum and your bike through the same time trial that the only difference will be where your heart let you ride harder and brain let you ride more efficiently. You are NOT faster on your aluminum than you would be on a 1975 steel bike (let's assume same geometry for wind resistance...I know there is no way the frame will have the same geometry, but your riding position could surely be the same). It is YOU that makes the ride effective, not the bike.

Carbon may be exciting, but for the recreational rider it is a joke. Spending $5-10k on a bike is stupid. If your wife bumps it with a bag of groceries and dents the frame it is destroyed which is gay. And again, it will make YOU no faster. Sort of the same bullshit that is happening. Everyone is buying bikes that are way too small for them so that they look like they have Lance's stance on their bike. It doesn't make them faster and in fact makes them slower, but that is the current fad. Stupid buying public.

The flex argument I laugh at too. Sitting at a stop sign I can push and flex my Ultegra crank set. It is most definitely stiffer and stronger than your FSA. Pretty great that your bottom bracket is stiff, but your crank isn't. Funny argument if you ask me.

Don't mean to rant, but the amount of useless information in the cycle industry is whacked. Took me a long time to sort through it and realize that it is exactly the same as it was in 1993 when I bought my last bike. A bunch of bs promoting something that is of no benefit.

[MKader17 332]

no worries about the rant, I am always ready to learn. not going to quote the whole thing but excerpts...

If you are concerned about performance why did you buy heavy pedals and shoes that just cost you all the weight savings that you had gained by going aluminum?

It my instance this was the higher performance/lighter of my options. Unfortunately my bike shop does not offer a wide array of selection (but they do offer plenty of help and are always friendly. I was interested in Trek bikes and they sold them and were very helpful in anything that I asked and I knew they'd have no problem offering assistance in the long run. So in this instance I may have paid for customer service more than quality product. I am perfectly fine with that because I feel I've made graver mistakes (AKA 4x6 and 6x9 Pioneer speakers in my original truck at some local shop w/o future help/knowledge for 2x what I could get them elsewhere).

As for stiffer where it needs to be stiffer, umm you live in Texas where it is flat. There is no benefit when you aren't climbing.

The hill country of Texas is where most rides are done. I hope that is considered not flat. But yes, where I am now, Beaumont, it is completely flat except for overpasses

If you are comfortable on your frame, keep adding time in the saddle until you are not and then realize you'd still be if it were steel.

I literally lol'ed when I read this. It may be true but it still made me lol

Where is it easier to lose 500g, in your frame or in your gut? Really simple solution if you are a weight weenie, learn how to eat and exercise to maximize weight loss.

Point well taken

Sounds to me like you swallowed the marketing pill that has ruined most of the bike design firms. Aluminum is cheaper which is why it is made. Cheaper does not generally equal better.

This was not the point of my argument. I tried to approach it via performance aspects only, not relating it to cost, and I still feel my statement is generally un-flawed assuming neither frame will break under normal usage (with the rate that technology is improving and prices are reducing, if my frame does in fact break in 15 years I feel I could replace the frame with something superior for less money IF necessary)

The ONLY time I am concerned about weight on a bike is when I want to get the bike airborn. Throwing around a heavy bike is much harder. Doesn't make it jump any worse, but surely gives you a different feeling of confidence when you need to pull something off.

Agreed

Carbon may be exciting, but for the recreational rider it is a joke. Spending $5-10k on a bike is stupid.

Most of the Madone series is less than 5K and has a full carbon fiber frame. But yes, more than 2K on a bike is stupid for the rec rider, bt I think CF is going to get cheap quick in the next decade.

The flex argument I laugh at too. Sitting at a stop sign I can push and flex my Ultegra crank set.

Isn't the Utegra set made of aluminum??? : P I kid I kid.

All this taken into account it still seems to me...

Aluminum = less weight and more performance

Steel - more comfort and longevity

However marginal each may be the above still holds true IMO

[Godsmack 360]

Ren and Stimpy..................God I miss the old cartoons

[Duran 387]

Duran you got a pm

I'll email you tomorrow Neal

Sounds good, I hope to have some good information for you.

Oh me too, I need something reliable.

I received nothing today. I will return to work Friday.

I'll be waiting

[Godsmack 360]

Goddamn sleep schedule is still fucked up

[Godsmack 360]

And I need a T0P

[Godsmack 360]

i can has T0P?