Quick question about square woofers

[Sencheezy 689]

I ran across this video today, and it made me wonder if this guy was talking out of his ass or not. What he's saying does make sense to me, talking about a square has more surface area to push more air out then a round woofer would. But if that was the case, then how come almost no manufacturer on this site even offers a square in any of their lineups? This part didn't make sense to me, because from what this guy is saying, everybody would be designing square woofers right?

[ssh 924]

This is simple terms and isn't accounting for actual cone displacement and surround widths, but 10" square sub would be 10x10=100square inches. 10" circular sub would be, radius^2(3.14)= 78.5square inches.

So yes it does have some more cone area, but you could always have a 12" circular sub and it would have more cone area then both the previous drivers, so if you want more cone area get a bigger driver.

The reason they aren't popular from what I've heard is they aren't very linear and distort at higher volumes. But I'll have to look more into this as I've never really looked into this.

[Sencheezy 689]

This is simple terms and isn't accounting for actual cone displacement and surround widths, but 10" square sub would be 10x10=100square inches. 10" circular sub would be, radius^2(3.14)= 78.5square inches.

So yes it does have some more cone area, but you could always have a 12" circular sub and it would have more cone area then both the previous drivers, so if you want more cone area get a bigger driver.

The reason they aren't popular from what I've heard is they aren't very linear and distort at higher volumes. But I'll have to look more into this as I've never really looked into this.

Yeah, I see your point, but then that would be more money for the consumer, If the buyer could lets say only fit a 10, then basicly, from what your saying, and what the video is saying, the buyer would be more satisfied if he/she bought a square woofer? I know this can't be true because its the overall box, amp, aplication, and the overall subwoofer design, etc etc etc. But, I'm wondering, how come the manufacturers that we love here on SSA, don't produce square woofers. But I think you answered my question by talking about the linear and distortation.

I guess that would have to be one the disadvantage of the square design. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to try it out though, like put as much effort into the square design, as they do with the round ones. (besides Kicker) Because maybe if FI, or SA, or SSA or whomever could take the time to develop a proper square woofer design, that would take care of those few flaws in the square design, then maybe they would produce a subwoofer that would have more output without haveing to get a bigger driver? IDK, just wondering.

[Mac N Cheese 90]

It doesnt seem like there would be an audible difference just because there is a SLIGHT cone area advantage.

[Sencheezy 689]

It doesnt seem like there would be an audible difference just because there is a SLIGHT cone area advantage.

Well, ~25% per cone could be a differnce once you start to multiply them.

[ssh 924]

This is simple terms and isn't accounting for actual cone displacement and surround widths, but 10" square sub would be 10x10=100square inches. 10" circular sub would be, radius^2(3.14)= 78.5square inches.

So yes it does have some more cone area, but you could always have a 12" circular sub and it would have more cone area then both the previous drivers, so if you want more cone area get a bigger driver.

The reason they aren't popular from what I've heard is they aren't very linear and distort at higher volumes. But I'll have to look more into this as I've never really looked into this.

Yeah, I see your point, but then that would be more money for the consumer, If the buyer could lets say only fit a 10, then basicly, from what your saying, and what the video is saying, the buyer would be more satisfied if he/she bought a square woofer? I know this can't be true because its the overall box, amp, aplication, and the overall subwoofer design, etc etc etc. But, I'm wondering, how come the manufacturers that we love here on SSA, don't produce square woofers. But I think you answered my question by talking about the linear and distortation.

I guess that would have to be one the disadvantage of the square design. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to try it out though, like put as much effort into the square design, as they do with the round ones. (besides Kicker) Because maybe if FI, or SA, or SSA or whomever could take the time to develop a proper square woofer design, that would take care of those few flaws in the square design, then maybe they would produce a subwoofer that would have more output without haveing to get a bigger driver? IDK, just wondering.

It's not worth it, the disadvantages outweigh it's advantage.

The cone area increase isn't dramatic. And it may be very costly for companies like Fi, Sundown, SSA to try and manufacture square cones.

As for costing more for the consumer, eh your not talking about a big price jump considering theirs a $20 difference between a 12" and 18" xcon.

[ssh 924]

It doesnt seem like there would be an audible difference just because there is a SLIGHT cone area advantage.

Well, ~25% per cone could be a differnce once you start to multiply them.

Sure it could all add up, but for the average consumer, having a 10" square driver vs a 10" circular driver, the difference would be less then 25% and likely not audible, tuning the enclosure / raising net volume would be more noticeable

And were not even talking about the actual sd of the driver, this number varies from model to model. And by your standards of gaining more output the driver could just have more xmax and thus more displacement. But theirs a limit to everything and a point to where it's not worth it, everything has it's trade-offs

[brandonf 9]

Larger cone area, less efficient, and corners help cause distortion, but can have slightly higher output at low frequencies and can be better in limited space. Google ftw.

"Being as how sound waves travel radially any other shape than round will be both less efficient and distorted."

[Sencheezy 689]

This is simple terms and isn't accounting for actual cone displacement and surround widths, but 10" square sub would be 10x10=100square inches. 10" circular sub would be, radius^2(3.14)= 78.5square inches.

So yes it does have some more cone area, but you could always have a 12" circular sub and it would have more cone area then both the previous drivers, so if you want more cone area get a bigger driver.

The reason they aren't popular from what I've heard is they aren't very linear and distort at higher volumes. But I'll have to look more into this as I've never really looked into this.

Yeah, I see your point, but then that would be more money for the consumer, If the buyer could lets say only fit a 10, then basicly, from what your saying, and what the video is saying, the buyer would be more satisfied if he/she bought a square woofer? I know this can't be true because its the overall box, amp, aplication, and the overall subwoofer design, etc etc etc. But, I'm wondering, how come the manufacturers that we love here on SSA, don't produce square woofers. But I think you answered my question by talking about the linear and distortation.

I guess that would have to be one the disadvantage of the square design. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to try it out though, like put as much effort into the square design, as they do with the round ones. (besides Kicker) Because maybe if FI, or SA, or SSA or whomever could take the time to develop a proper square woofer design, that would take care of those few flaws in the square design, then maybe they would produce a subwoofer that would have more output without haveing to get a bigger driver? IDK, just wondering.

It's not worth it, the disadvantages outweigh it's advantage.

The cone area increase isn't dramatic. And it may be very costly for companies like Fi, Sundown, SSA to try and manufacture square cones.

As for costing more for the consumer, eh your not talking about a big price jump considering theirs a $20 difference between a 12" and 18" xcon.

Ohhh it does...... Hmmmm.

hahaha, yeah, I never understood that.

[Sencheezy 689]

Larger cone area, less efficient, and corners help cause distortion, but can have slightly higher output at low frequencies and can be better in limited space. Google ftw.

"Being as how sound waves travel radially any other shape than round will be both less efficient and distorted."

[Sencheezy 689]

It doesnt seem like there would be an audible difference just because there is a SLIGHT cone area advantage.

Well, ~25% per cone could be a differnce once you start to multiply them.

Sure it could all add up, but for the average consumer, having a 10" square driver vs a 10" circular driver, the difference would be less then 25% and likely not audible, tuning the enclosure / raising net volume would be more noticeable

And were not even talking about the actual sd of the driver, this number varies from model to model. And by your standards of gaining more output the driver could just have more xmax and thus more displacement. But theirs a limit to everything and a point to where it's not worth it, everything has it's trade-offs

I guess all in all, its just not worth it?

[ssh 924]

Larger cone area, less efficient, and corners help cause distortion, but can have slightly higher output at low frequencies and can be better in limited space. Google ftw.

"Being as how sound waves travel radially any other shape than round will be both less efficient and distorted."

I would have to disagree with that statement, in simple terms efficiency could be seen as the relationship between input (power being put in) and output (spl).

Put 100watts into a 12" xcon and then 100watts into a 18" xcon. The 18" xcon is going to be louder (you could even use less power and it would likely be louder), thus it's more efficient then the 12".

[ssh 924]

It doesnt seem like there would be an audible difference just because there is a SLIGHT cone area advantage.

Well, ~25% per cone could be a differnce once you start to multiply them.

Sure it could all add up, but for the average consumer, having a 10" square driver vs a 10" circular driver, the difference would be less then 25% and likely not audible, tuning the enclosure / raising net volume would be more noticeable

And were not even talking about the actual sd of the driver, this number varies from model to model. And by your standards of gaining more output the driver could just have more xmax and thus more displacement. But theirs a limit to everything and a point to where it's not worth it, everything has it's trade-offs

I guess all in all, its just not worth it?

I personally would never use a square driver, even if ssa made it, period.

[Beandip 3]

^ agreed

[Shogen 325]

I'm glad I didn't stick with my L7 that most people were telling be to just get a proper box for it.... But I kinda wished I spent a little extra for a 15" rather than a 12" but I am happy regardless.. Sounds amazing and won't do squares again....

[putz 0]

had a pair of those brutus 12's lol. got loud but sounded like crap. got rid of them to get my sa-15's

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

It doesnt seem like there would be an audible difference just because there is a SLIGHT cone area advantage.

Well, ~25% per cone could be a differnce once you start to multiply them.

Sure it could all add up, but for the average consumer, having a 10" square driver vs a 10" circular driver, the difference would be less then 25% and likely not audible, tuning the enclosure / raising net volume would be more noticeable

And were not even talking about the actual sd of the driver, this number varies from model to model. And by your standards of gaining more output the driver could just have more xmax and thus more displacement. But theirs a limit to everything and a point to where it's not worth it, everything has it's trade-offs

I guess all in all, its just not worth it?

I personally would never use a square driver, even if ssa made it, period.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

That guy is very awkward on camera and made a few grammatical errors I thought they would have not left in before releasing the video.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

In terms of square versus round, you will not be able to discern an audible difference between a square or cone driver. People who tell you otherwise are full of shit. The square driver will have some different harmonics and non-linearity, but by the time you hear these, you will hearing issues with a cone shaped driver as well. The only reason the L7s have a reputation for not sounding good is the same reason ca.com's forum is still going. The world is world is full of idiots.

[Notorious97200 339]

I currently use an L7 S15 in a ported box, and it sounds "good" and gets really loud on my Sundown 1500 at 2 ohms.

I have not metered anything, but it seems as loud as my Xcon in the same box on 1500 watts. It does not sound as good though. and by far ! and does not goes as low IN THE SAME BOX.

I have no bass for a few weeks, so maybe I don't really remember how loud was my Xcon !!!

I'm waiting to order a round sub now !!! No more square for me !!!!!!

[///M5 2,833]

I also own an L7. For the purpose it was acquired for it is a great driver. All of the anti-hype is a joke as is the implications form the video that it is the end of all other designs (no I didn't watch it). Everything is a balance. For my app, it was box size and output capability that made it win. Lots of limitations on a boat and it works perfectly and sounds great for what it was designed to do.

Are there better drivers out there? Sure. Are there better drivers for the application that I am using it for? Perhaps, but not many. All based on the constraints of the install.

Same thing when people bash the possibility of any 6x9 sounding good. It IS possible. Atm there aren't any on the market that I want, but it isn't at all because of the shape.

As for why no one else builds square subs? Its all tooling cost and balancing the goals of their drivers. No such thing as custom tooling for small production runs and keeping affordability.

[CrazyKenKid 64]

interesting read! I have never looked into square woofers b/c someone once told me "sine waves are round and so should the speaker that makes the sine waves" it made sense to me and I never gave it a second thought!

in all fairness I would never get a square sub because well i don't like how they look! also a side note the guys in the video is sales man and he was doing his job! tell you about the perks no matter how small they are! (25% increase on cone area) and didn't mention any thing bad!

o well nice post and interesting read!

thanks

[95Honda 486]

The biggest downfall I see is all the increased mms to keep the cone behaving properly, and thus dropping efficiency. Look at the mms of a Solo-X 18, it is almost comical...

But if you have a place where a square will fit right and allow you more cone area than something round, I don't see a reason not to use the one....

I think the argument if one is better than the other because of cone area is stupid, though....

Edited December 24, 2010 by 95Honda

[///M5 2,833]

interesting read! I have never looked into square woofers b/c someone once told me "sine waves are round and so should the speaker that makes the sine waves" it made sense to me and I never gave it a second thought!

Sine waves are not round, they are sinusoidal. They also don't propagate spherically so don't go there either.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Sine waves are not round, they are sinusoidal. They also don't propagate spherically so don't go there either.

You must not watch cartoons.