New "SQL" system for a metalhead - Right direction?

[pascalc 0]

Hey guys, this is going to be my first real long post on the boards, I apologize but im trying to get as much information out there to help you help me! (Skip to "cliff" notes/questions at bottom if reading my "book" is just too much) I have been reading up on this topic for the past week and Ive got a pretty good idea on where im going with my setup but its good to hear people's experiences and advice on wether this will really achieve what im looking for. Let me start off by saying that Im not an audiophile (at least I don't think I am , and by that I mean that I probably would not be able to detect minor differences in SQ from one SQ sub to another) but I am looking for SQ out of this system and I also want it to get LOUD (I would love to feel the bass drum kick in the chest, just like at a metal concert), with that said, my current setup just isn't cutting it in the LOUD factor (the sub stage that is because my components can get quite loud and bury the sub). If I have to prioritize SQ or SPL first, Id say SPL then SQ, just to give you an idea, Id rather sacrifice some SQ to "feel" the drum kick pounding my chest. And this is all in a 08 Pontiac Grand Prix for a DD, I do not plan to compete at all!

Here is my current setup that I installed over a year ago, the goal for this system a year ago was the same as now but my car audio knowledge was more limited and it was also my first ever setup (I went with mostly Alpine as you can see because I got most of it at a really good price) and it was eventually going to be put in my GF's car when I upgraded. I know now that big names dont always equal to better sound but I love the compact size of the PDX amplifiers and their ability to give the same rated power in either 2 or 4 ohm. In addition I knew from the beginning that the sub channel was only 300W on the PDX-5 but didn't have any experience to gauge just how loud it could get in my cabin so my intent was to upgrade eventually, and this is where we are at now!

Current system:

HU: Pioneer AVH-4300DVD

Front: SPX-17REF

Rear: SPS-619

Amp: PDX-5 (birth sheet claimed 4 x 97W + 1 x 357W at 14.4V)

Sub: SWR-1223D in sealed 1 cuft @ 4 ohms

Wiring: 4GA Rockford Fosgate with 100A MAXI fuse

When I started thinking about upgrading about a week ago (BEFORE I spent countless hours researching this topic to make sure Im doing it right this time), I was planning to go with the following:

Front/Rear Amp: PDX-F4

Rear: Kicker 10CVT654 (for more midbass in cabin)

Sub Amp: PDX-M12

Subs: 2 x SWR-1243D in custom box @ 4 ohm

NOW Ive got a diferent approach which will cost a little more money but I was ready to spend up to 2-2.5K$ for this new setup anyways, give or take a few hundreds dollars to get the sound I want so it might still fall into budget. I will breakdown the new setup in different parts to make it easier to read and try to keep information on a specific topic together.

1 - Deadening

As part of this new project, I will be deadening the doors and trunk area prior to installing and buying the new equipment. This should hopefully yield some more midbass from my Type-X components. Im currently debating between NVX Audio (new player in the market as far as I can see) or Second Skin Damplifier Pro which seems to be praised on alot of forums. I read up on deadening and from what I gathered, 25% coverage on a flat surface is usually enough, and there is no need to cover every single surface of the car. With that said I imagine that ~40sq ft should be plenty to cover all four doors and the trunk lid.

2 - Electrical

As far as Ive researched, 04 and up Grand Prix came with a 160A alternator from factory and I currently have no electrical issues (no dimming) but with the PDX-5 rated at 60A, that's not a whole lot of draw in comparison to where im headed. So for the alt, I plan to leave it as is for now but do the big three upgrade using 4GA of Knu wire and upgrade the wiring to the trunk with a 0GA run of Knu Kolossus. I was also thinking about installing a second battery mounted in the rear seperated with an isolator, although im not sure if this is really needed with the amount of power im looking at. In the summer, I like opening my car doors and trunk and using my system as big "boombox" when working outside around the house and the idea of having a second battery to run my system with the car off and not have to worry about a dead starting battery is something ive always wanted...I read that some people insist on having a second 0GA run for the ground if placing a second battery in the rear but im not sure if this truly required for my car(not sure how good the grouding is through the frame front to back)...

3 - Subwoofer

From reading up alot on """"SQL"""" subs I was leaning towards 2 x IDQ V3 12" but in the past days I found alot of recommendations for the Fi Q subs for """"SQL"""" applications. So far Ive settled on a Fi Q sub which will be in a sealed box, leaning towards a 12" due to the smaller box (I like to have trunk space) but a 15" is also a possibility since I should still be left with some amount of trunk space. From the research Ive done, the Q should have the following options for a sealed application (High Qts, I-Heat Ring, Cooling, and the extra Spider) and DVC 2 ohm for a 4 ohm load. As for the box, I know going towards the bigger recommended size for the sub, I will get lower extension and less power handling, I imagine it will still be able to handle its rated RMS power even with the biggest box recommended....

4 - Amplifiers

For the amps, im still leaning towards the PDX-M12 and the PDX-F4 for a few reasons but I also looked at Sundown amps and some value amps like the Hifonic Brutus or Gladiator series. Reasons why im leaning towards the PDX amps are as follows:

-Compact size / Can be stacked to reduce the equipment footprint and share a common heatsink

-PDX-M12 has a full range pre-out

-Same power output at either 2 or 4 ohm

-With above reasons, thinking of future use/fexibility for these amps in my GF's car when I decided to upgrade yet again, well I plan it will happen regardless of what I do now

5 - Rear speakers

I know putting more midbass in the rear is not the best approach as your midbass should be coming from your front stage as to not be able to locate it when turning your head (as oppsed to looking forward, which you do 90% of the time in the car anyways) but Im going this route for now as Im not ready to upgrade my front stage components just yet, that will be a future project where I will upgrade and relocate tweeters, fab some kickpanels, etc... So with that said, I was thinking either some 6.5" or 8" midbass drivers in the rear deck driven by the extra channels on the PDX-F4 amp and then trying my best to blend them in othe overall sound so they can not be located as easily.

6 - Miscellaneous

From what Ive concluded in my research over the past week is that achieving """"SQL"""" bass from metal music is alot harder to achieve than dance, rap, etc... so based on that alot of people recommended an AudioControl Epicenter to "add" a little extra bass to the tracks/recordings which lack some but not for use with all material being played. So I went ahead and bought one but didn't receive it yet. I planned to install it using the rear outputs of my Pioneer (Epicenter requires full range input and SUBW output is limited to 125Hz), then feed it into the PDX-M12 and feed the amp pre-out to the rear channels of the PSX-F4 amp for the rear midbass speakers. OR forego the rear midbass speakers altogether and feed the PDX-M12 pre-out to my front components... Im also contemplating about buying a SMD DD-1 and CC-1 to set my amps right without worrying about overdriving anything...

At the risk of sounding redundant, sorry for this long post, I figured the more information I put out there, the easier it is for people to provide advice/opinions. To wrap this up briefly here are some "cliff" notes and questions of the above.

New setup:

Deadening: NVX Audio OR SS Dampilifier Pro

Electrical: Big three upgrade (4GA) and 0GA to rear dist block, all Knu Kolossus (still decidingif I should mount a rear battery)

Front/Rear Amp: PDX-F4

Rear: 6.5" or 8" midbass speaker (not sure yet on this)

Sub Amp: PDX-M12

Subs: 1 x Fi Q 12" OR 1 x Fi Q 15", (DVC 2 ohm for a 4 ohm load, High Qts, I-Heat Ring, Cooling, and the extra Spider)

Misc: AudioControl Epicenter

Questions:

1 - Deadening, am I missing anything in this area? (see above)

2 - Should I get a second battery or not? If yes, should I run a dedicated 0GA ground as well? Also, am I missing anything? (see above)

3 - Is this subwoofer and configuration a good choice for my musical taste? Will 1200W (surely it will be higher than this at 14.4V on the birth sheet) be enough if going with the PDX-M12?

4 - Any other amps I should consider taking into consideration what Ive written above? For both front/rear and sub.

5 - Should I even bother with rear midbass speakers if I plan to install the AC Epicenter and make it run on my front stage and sub? (see above under 6 - Miscellaneous)

6 - Should I forego installing this and simply install rear midbass speakers instead? Anyone used the SMD DD-1 and CC-1, would you recommend them?

Thanks in advance everyone!

Edited April 7, 2012 by pascalc

[jonbearsmt 919]

someone didn't read the rules of the forum

[pascalc 0]

I skimmed through them for a few minutes, Im sorry. What did I miss I can fix it right away...

[mlstrass 1]

ported box tuned mid/upper 30's is what I'd do.

I run AQ HDC's and listen to mostly 80's metal. They have a lot of punch on kick drums.

2 12's or a single 15 as it takes some decent cone are to feel that thump in the chest...

I run a 15" FI Q in the wife's car and it's solid on metal also. Ported enclosure...

[altoncustomtech 773]

I honestly have to say that's one of the most thought out, best laid out, and complete first posts I've seen. Kudo's to that!

I knocked out the main body of ur post to help with reading a few comments to your questions and concerns.

New setup:

Deadening: NVX Audio OR SS Dampilifier Pro

Electrical: Big three upgrade (4GA) and 0GA to rear dist block, all Knu Kolossus (still decidingif I should mount a rear battery)

Front/Rear Amp: PDX-F4

Rear: 6.5" or 8" midbass speaker (not sure yet on this)

Sub Amp: PDX-M12

Subs: 1 x Fi Q 12" OR 1 x Fi Q 15", (DVC 2 ohm for a 4 ohm load, High Qts, I-Heat Ring, Cooling, and the extra Spider)

Misc: AudioControl Epicenter

Questions:

1 - Deadening, am I missing anything in this area? (see above) Consider SDS (Sound Deadening Showdown) as well, Don is extremely knowledgeable about all things sound deadening. Reading through his website can be quite enlightening itself. CCF (closed cell foam) and MLV (mass loaded vinyl) do more to help block noise than CLD (constrained layer dampener (commonly known as sound deadener)) can alone. The CLD has it's uses but combined with CCF and MLV the results are much more impressive.

2 - Should I get a second battery or not? If yes, should I run a dedicated 0GA ground as well? Also, am I missing anything? (see above) Having even a small battery in the rear helps. As for the isolator, everyone has their preferences. I've never had an issue not using one in the 15-16 yrs I've been doing car audio, but then I also don't let them sit and play for very long periods so that's kind of like putting the cart before the horse.

3 - Is this subwoofer and configuration a good choice for my musical taste? Will 1200W (surely it will be higher than this at 14.4V on the birth sheet) be enough if going with the PDX-M12? Being an owner of the Fi Q's I can honestly say they are amazing subs. I agree with mlstrass above that to really get the kick you're looking for a pair of subs or a 15 would be beneficial. Most people prefer sealed enclosures for your style of music, but designed and built correctly a ported can do every bit as good. Metallica's One is still one of the most impressive songs to listen to in my van.

4 - Any other amps I should consider taking into consideration what Ive written above? For both front/rear and sub. There are SO many brands and models on the market it's hard to make valid recommendations of one over the other when comparing apples to apples. I believe the two Alpine's you've suggested would do just fine, however there's nothing wrong with expanding your experience with different brands as well. Ultimately your budget, space, and electrical limitations will be your deciding factors in this case IMHO.

5 - Should I even bother with rear midbass speakers if I plan to install the AC Epicenter and make it run on my front stage and sub? (see above under 6 - Miscellaneous) I have no experience with the Epicenter so I can't comment on this one.

6 - Should I forego installing this and simply install rear midbass speakers instead? Anyone used the SMD DD-1 and CC-1, would you recommend them? If I were you I wouldn't even bother with the rear midbass speakers. Properly treating your doors with sound deadener and optimizing the installation of your front stage will do more to help midbass and clean up midrange than you imagine. It's incredible what a good solid baffle to mount the mids to can do for the overall sound. As for the SMD devices, I don't see where they're necessary or truly usefull but I've been used to setting by ear for so many years I have a hard time imagining a piece of equipment can do better by itself.

Thanks in advance everyone!

I believe you're heading in the right direction for your rebuild. Though I do have to note that the sub you currently have does have the ability to do very good in the matter at hand. Perhaps playing with enclosure placement, a new enclosure, etc. for it would be worth a try before spending that much time and money rebuilding. Then if you still can't get the output and response you're looking for go ahead and spend the time and money on the upgrade. I believe I've heard those Type R's do come alive in a ported enclosure, and given you're only feeding it 300watts an efficient ported enclosure may fit the bill. Just a thought.

[pascalc 0]

Thanks mlstrass and Alton for your advice, much appreciated!! I have been reading since last night on the understanding of speaker response curves and box designs and its quite enlightening! I am now leaning heavily towards a ported box design after educating myself on the above.

I remember reading through SDS earlier in the week and I remember it was good infromation, but I had read only on the CLD tiles. I will go read some more on the CCF and MLV, thanks!

Ok, well I think I should install the battery in the rear then for my purpose (plus if it helps like you said then even better). I wanted to go mainly with an isolator because of the fact that I want to be able to listen to my system with the ignition off for periods of time and not worry about a dead starting battery. There's a PAC isolator bundle that come with the PAC BG12 battery monitor which claims to monitor both battery voltages and never leave you with a dead starting battery when listening to the system with ignition off. Anyone ever heard anything good/bad about this BG12 monitor?

So a pair of 12's or a single 15, got it. Since I don't want to upgrade to an HO alt just yet it would seem more logical to stick with one Fi Q 15 and drive it with its rated RMS rather than 2 x Fi Q 12's at half power. Am I correct on that statement?

As for the amps, although my eyes are on the alpines, Im still very open to changing my mind providing they fit in my budget, space as you mentionned etc.. so this will be decided once I nail down my sub choice. I'll keep checking out my options in the meantime.

Since I plan on deadening the doors and trunk before buying anything else, then i'll get a better idea of my front stage midbass and as you mentionned, probably won't even need to bother with rear speakers. If that's the case, then my amp options will open up some more as I won't need a pre-out on the amp.

Alton, in regards to your last statement, I started playing around with WinISD and modeling my Type-R in my current sealed box vs the Alpine recommended ported box and a custom designed ported box tuned lower. I would like to build a ported box for my current Type-R and see how much better it can perform. As you suggested, this is just good for my own knowledge and experience before I spend more money on new amps/drivers.

From what I can see, the sealed box I have now seems to be the least efficient, the Alpine recommended design is more efficient but peaks in the lower frequencies and the custom design I came up with seems to be more efficient with a nearly flat response curve. Here is what I came up with, please let me know If I did something wrong in my calculations, I was trying to put my newly aquired knowledge about speaker response curves and box design to work to reinforce my thoughts and ensure I understood the material correctly. WinISD graph for the three combinations is below.

Current 1 cuft sealed box (yellow line)

Driver : Alpine SWR-1223D

Vas : 43.0

Qts : 0.47

Fs : 28.00

SPL : 85.00

--

Number of drivers : 1

Box type : Closed

Box size : 1.000 ft^3

Relative

Freq Gain SPL

[Hz] [dB] [dB]

30.00 -7.32 77.68

35.00 -5.16 79.84

40.00 -3.57 81.43

45.00 -2.44 82.56

50.00 -1.65 83.35

55.00 -1.11 83.89

60.00 -0.75 84.25

65.00 -0.50 84.50

70.00 -0.33 84.67

75.00 -0.21 84.79

80.00 -0.13 84.87

Alpine recommended 1.9 cuft ported box tuned at 33Hz (green line)

Driver : Alpine SWR-1223D

Vas : 43.0

Qts : 0.47

Fs : 28.00

SPL : 85.00

--

Number of drivers : 1

Box type : Vented

Box size : 1.900 ft^3

Tuning frequency : 33.00 Hz

Vent : 1 vent(s)

14.30 in length for each

12.00 x 1.25 in rectangle

Relative

Freq Gain SPL

[Hz] [dB] [dB]

30.00 -0.90 84.10

35.00 2.62 87.62

40.00 3.46 88.46

45.00 3.15 88.15

50.00 2.64 87.64

55.00 2.20 87.20

60.00 1.84 86.84

65.00 1.56 86.56

70.00 1.33 86.33

75.00 1.16 86.16

80.00 1.01 86.01

Custom design I came up with for 2 cuft ported box tuned at 27Hz (blue line)

Driver : Alpine SWR-1223D

Vas : 43.0

Qts : 0.47

Fs : 28.00

SPL : 85.00

--

Number of drivers : 1

Box type : Vented

Box size : 2.000 ft^3

Tuning frequency : 27.00 Hz

Vent : 1 vent(s)

28.03 in length for each

15.00 x 1.25 in rectangle

Relative

Freq Gain SPL

[Hz] [dB] [dB]

30.00 0.22 85.22

35.00 0.92 85.92

40.00 0.99 85.99

45.00 0.92 85.92

50.00 0.81 85.81

55.00 0.72 85.72

60.00 0.63 85.63

65.00 0.56 85.56

70.00 0.49 85.49

75.00 0.44 85.44

80.00 0.39 85.39

[///M5 2,833]

Need to take a step back. You need midbass to lower midrange, not sub bass. AND you need it up front. The real question is what can you fit up there and what will it take to make your chest pop. For the style of music and budget you like I personally would recommend an active setup with some pro audio mids up front. Assuming you can sandwich an 8 or 10 up there.

The rest gets tricky, but metal is completely different than what most people ask for and I think your focus is being misdirected by reading a lot of threads by bassheads.

As for the rules comment, SQL isn't a term that is used on this forum. It means nothing and is just stupid. No offense to you. Think of it this way. SPL is about making a box as loud as possible which in turn means having the peakiest frequency response as possible, SQ is making a box have the flattest frequency response as possible. SQL would then be a compromise of two polar opposites. Makes no sense. Would sound like shit with metal too.

Definitely buy SDS. Bang for the buck and helpful response from the owner are WAY beyond all other brands.

Some other issues with your plans. An epicenter is a useless joke, the SMD is even worse, it is actually a shame those asshats sell it as it is a complete waste of money that does NOTHING positive. Truthfully almost any sub will do, but I'd definitely find one that is suited for a sealed enclosure and roll that way. You DON'T want an IDQ, way overpriced for a mediocre driver.

I like your goals. I like the fact you've done a bunch of reading, but now I am going to challenge you to think about the reading you've done and hopefully allow you to realize that it's been biased by bassheads. If you are truly a metal head you have a complete different set of needs to fill and REALLY need to focus on the front stage. The rest is easy

[jonbearsmt 919]

that's all i was getting out...

you were very to the point and made a VERY well laid out first post,.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Most everything I listen to is classic Rock and metal. CCR, Pink Floyd, Metalica, Guns & Roses, ect.

You already have pretty good product. I would first do as you planned and deaden the entire car correctly using Don's products "SDS"

Then port your current sub. If it's not enough bass then buy another one.

I personally like to use Focal polyglass 165 v30. They provide plenty volume and midbass for ME. I have also heard the old Alpine BMW when the x series first came out and they sounded excellent. So if deadened properly you may gain a great deal of midbass and volume.

[ssh 924]

Need to take a step back. You need midbass to lower midrange, not sub bass. AND you need it up front. The real question is what can you fit up there and what will it take to make your chest pop. For the style of music and budget you like I personally would recommend an active setup with some pro audio mids up front. Assuming you can sandwich an 8 or 10 up there.

The rest gets tricky, but metal is completely different than what most people ask for and I think your focus is being misdirected by reading a lot of threads by bassheads.

As for the rules comment, SQL isn't a term that is used on this forum. It means nothing and is just stupid. No offense to you. Think of it this way. SPL is about making a box as loud as possible which in turn means having the peakiest frequency response as possible, SQ is making a box have the flattest frequency response as possible. SQL would then be a compromise of two polar opposites. Makes no sense. Would sound like shit with metal too.

Definitely buy SDS. Bang for the buck and helpful response from the owner are WAY beyond all other brands.

Some other issues with your plans. An epicenter is a useless joke, the SMD is even worse, it is actually a shame those asshats sell it as it is a complete waste of money that does NOTHING positive. Truthfully almost any sub will do, but I'd definitely find one that is suited for a sealed enclosure and roll that way. You DON'T want an IDQ, way overpriced for a mediocre driver.

I like your goals. I like the fact you've done a bunch of reading, but now I am going to challenge you to think about the reading you've done and hopefully allow you to realize that it's been biased by bassheads. If you are truly a metal head you have a complete different set of needs to fill and REALLY need to focus on the front stage. The rest is easy

Pascalc, I have very similar goals to you, and frankly that "impact" from percussion instruments to the chest was centered around the midbass area, and not necessarily the typical subwoofer range, as mentioned above. Certainly the use of a subwoofer can add or "complete" some of that feeling, but after switching from excessive bass (flexing steering wheel, etc) + lacking midbass to toned down bass + upgrade in midbass region, I can say the latter is personally way more enjoyable, and exactly what I was striving for from the git-go (I just didn't know

I would use the money appropriated for the rear speakers, for new front speakers. As large as you can fit.

Assuming your front speakers will be mounted in your doors, proper sound deadening treatment to them can improve midbass.

[Notorious97200 339]

You're in good hands, OP !

Keep your type x speakers, and build a good ported box for your sub.

The Alpine pdx are not bad at all. You can keep the one you have and use it in your system : 1 sub channel for the sub, and the others bridged in 2 channels for your front speakers. If you feel that you need more power for the sub, you will upgrade later. But use it first. You may love it like that.

I think 0 ga wire would be better , for any future upgrade and for the big3.

Just my 02cts !

Good luck with your system !

[cobra93 47]

The response you see in WinISD isn't what you'll have in you vehicle.

If you build one of the altenate ported systems, that you've modeled, you should at least have a comparison between the two.

This should give you a better idea of what you like for future reference.

Where the hell did the spell check go?

[pascalc 0]

I took some time out of my lunch at work to type this update...sorry for another "long" post

///M5, thank you for your comments, and no offence taken on the """"SQL"""" term, I obviously missed that one in the forum rules.

Nonetheless I understand your point that they are two polar opposites. As for the active setup, its something I wanted to

do next year when upgrading my front stage but im looking into options for this year (measured my door last night, I *might* be able to

fit an 8" woofer in the door with a ~3.5", *maybe* 4" mid and relocate the tweeter near the mirror sail panel for a 3-way

setup). I didn't get much time in the past two days to do much research on crossovers but I browsed quickly, found more

people praising an AudioControl product, the DQXS for its flexibility and ease of use. Are all AudioControl products junk

(in regards to EpiCenter remark) or is the DQXS a reasonable buy? The only gripe that alot of people had with the unit was

the fact that it didn't have T/A. I read the owner's manual for the DQXS, seems decent for my needs but then again, as

mentionned, I don't think ive got an audiophile ear so maybe it would be just fine. They can be bought for about 500$ on

eBay, any better suggestions?

Ive also decided to go for SDS, I just want to read up some more on the CCF and MLV (didn't get time yet) then figure out

how many CLD tiles i'll need. I'll most likely be placing my order in the coming week or so. Those foam speaker baffles

that are meant to protect the speaker when mounted in the door, are those a waste of time or they can they be beneficial? I

ask because one Type-X REF reviewer on another forum mentionned that the midbass was lacking and after he properly deadened

his doors and installed speaker baffles, the difference was night and day.

As for the front stage, I started just that by modifying my setup last night. I disconnected my rear speakers from my PDX-5

and fine tuned the system again with only a front stage. Just for testing purposes, I then enabled the loudness on the mids

from the HU and overall I found it started to sound more to my liking but I tend to not like using loudness boosts so I

turned it back to off. That's when I came to realize that you are right about the idea that I need to focus more on the

front stage then sub bass. Tonight, if time permits I plan to bi-amp my Type-X since Im no longer driving the rears and see

what kind of difference I can get from them. Reviews ive read of people who did so with the Type-X REF say it makes a

difference. Any suggestions on this?

Audibel Customs, thank you for your input. I looked at those Focal components (and the higher K2 line) and everyone seems to

rave about them and mention good midbass as well, they are pricey but seem well worth the money. I would love to buy a pair

and test them out but for the moment I'll tame myself and see how much these Type-X can perform AFTER my doors are properly

deadened and the set bi-amped. Then afterwards i'll be in a better position to determine if I should upgrade them, it's all

about learning and gaining experience in this hobby, I love it!

I will also attempt building two ported box for my sub and see how they both sound, the Alpine recommended size and the

custom design I came up with. Then I'll have a better idea to compare the same sub in the same car in a sealed vs ported

enclosure and let my ears tell the difference of what I like. I think this will be invaluable to do as a learning

experience and a deciding factor on where to go with the sub stage. Although im still very tempted to buy an Fi Q and test

it out, once again I will tame myself and perform due diligence by doing the above box building exercise before buying more

equipment.

stefanhinote, that's good to hear!!! So it would seem that I was heading in the wrong direction by focusing on my sub stage and you guys are driving me towards the right direction now. Thank you all!

Notorious from FWI, i'm in good hands indeed! All the help ive been getting thus far from EVERYONE is invaluable and VERY

MUCH appreciated! I will try to maximize my current equipment and see how everything sounds after the improvements

mentionned above. Then I'll be in a better position to gauge what I need. As for bridging my amp, I didn't think of that

because the Type-X advertise 75W RMS (although many reviewers claimed they could handle alot more...) and my amp is 4 x 75W

so I thought of bi-amping them since bridging them would up that to 2 x 150W (supposed to be 4 ohm stable in bridged mode

but I can't see that in the manual or docs on Alpine site). I'll try bi-amping first...

cobra93, thank you, I will do as you mentionned, build both ported boxes and compare them to see how they both sound vs my

current sealed box.

Thanks again everyone for your input! Stay tuned...

P.S.: Mods, should this thread be located in the "Build Logs" section, I'm not sure...If it is more appropriate in the

"Build Logs" section, please feel free to move it there, thanks!

Edited April 11, 2012 by pascalc

[///M5 2,833]

I'd rather use a headunit than the DQXS. Having the flexibility up front and in your hands is HUGE. In particular if you are crafting something out of non standard drivers.

For a first shot I'd avoid a three way...but instead trying to minimize the pain of the three way setup. If you are truly a metal head I'd recommend something different to you than I've ever recommended on the board, but it'll depend truly on what you choose for crossovers, mounting locations, and dough/time etc you want to put into it.

No need to move to the build logs section, unless of course you start posting build pics but even then I'd propose you leave this open for questions and make a build log thread where you point back to here. That way discussion of your install and choices is separate from people oo'ing and aw'ing over what you've done.

[hondakilla98 29]

If you are truly a metal head I'd recommend something different to you than I've ever recommended on the board, but it'll depend truly on what you choose for crossovers, mounting locations, and dough/time etc you want to put into it.

This I'm interested to hear.

[altoncustomtech 773]

If you are truly a metal head I'd recommend something different to you than I've ever recommended on the board, but it'll depend truly on what you choose for crossovers, mounting locations, and dough/time etc you want to put into it.

This I'm interested to hear.

My thoughts exactly.

[trod2902 26]

If you are truly a metal head I'd recommend something different to you than I've ever recommended on the board, but it'll depend truly on what you choose for crossovers, mounting locations, and dough/time etc you want to put into it.

This I'm interested to hear.

My thoughts exactly.

Im a metalhead who has yet to upgrade my front stage so im tuned in for sure

[///M5 2,833]

Nothing is ever a good solution for everyone, that is why I specifically asked about his mounting locations. Not even sure what today's idea of a metal head would be, but I did play lead guitar in a cover band that played a crap ton of Metallica, Megadeth, Ozzy and such in 1989-92.

[pascalc 0]

For a first shot I'd avoid a three way...but instead trying to minimize the pain of the three way setup. If you are truly a metal head I'd recommend something different to you than I've ever recommended on the board, but it'll depend truly on what you choose for crossovers, mounting locations, and dough/time etc you want to put into it.

I am truly a metal head and I am very interested in hearing what you would propose for my setup...

Right now my drivers and tweeters are mounted in the stock factory locations. The 6.5" driver is at the bottom of the door mounted in the factory plastic "support tower" that is fixed onto the door. The tweeter is mounted on the door panel about 2-3 inches higher than the 6.5" driver. If I was to remove the factory plastic tower and custom fabricate an mdf mount and trim my factory panel I believe an 8" could fit. Then there might be space left for a 3.5-4" driver (where the tweeter is now) if I decide to go with a 3-way setup in the future.

As for the DQXS unit, I forgot to mention that it has a dash control unit that can be purchased which allows tuning from the drivers seat. I also forgot to mention another gripe people had with the DQXS is that it has fixed 24/db crossover slopes. I looked at other DSP's (Alpine, JBL, Pioneer, Zapco to name a few and even saw a powerful DIY "miniDSP") and most if not all had T/A and adjustable crossover slopes. But I'm not sure if I need those as I'm not trying to achieve "100% perfect" sound at the moment, I just want to focus on increasing the volume and keeping the same or better sound quality (with more midbass for that punch of course).

On another note, I biamped my Type-X speakers the other night and tried them out for a day, maybe it was me wanting to hear a difference but I think they had a little bit better midbass but not enough to make a very noticeable difference if any (will test this out again after I put on the SDS products). In addition I received my Epicenter yesterday from UPS and quickly installed it last night (just to try it out since I had already bough it anyways), tuned up the system quickly (worked on it for only 10 minutes or so). I know you said that the Epicenter is a complete joke but I will say this, it did increase the overall sound experience in the car. The kick drums and other percussions sound better and it sounds and feels as if my Type-X speakers are putting out more midbass (even though they are not because the Epicenter is installed on my sub). Don't get me wrong, I'm not praising the product by any means but I can hear that it did make a difference. Fortunately for me, it still does not meet my needs on the sound I'm trying to achieve but it did help so I will leave it installed in the meantime while I advance on my project (It will probably end up in my girl's car if she wants it).

Next step for me is vibration dampening and reducing outside noise. I contacted Don at SDS for a shipping quote on enough material (CLD, 1/4" CCF, MLV, Butyl rope, Vinyl cement, etc...) to do all four doors and the trunk lid (I will do the floor and the rest of the trunk later when I upgrade my electrical). I'm looking to place the order as soon as I hear back from Don. In the meantime, I will pull my rear deck Type-S 6x9 to replace my girl's stock rear deck speakers in her Nissan Altima. I will also start working on the build of two ported boxes, and plan to test them without the Epicenter hooked up to compare them to my sealed box.

[///M5 2,833]

Psychoacoustics are a bitch, the "sound" experience is solely dependent on the recordings being used.

What part of metal is most important to you or most lacking with what you currently have? What do you want the system to do better? Tons of ways to skin any cat, but doing it the way that best suits your needs would be my goal.

[altoncustomtech 773]

OP, I gotta say you've got to be one of the most thorough posters I've seen in awhile. The amount of detail and information just isn't seen as often as it should be on here, you should be proud.

I don't know what Sean's feelings are on the subject but it's been my experience that building small sealed enclosures for midbass speakers can really help the output in the midbass range. Car Audio & Electronics had an article (both in the magazine and on their website at one time) about it too. I tried it right after reading about it in the magazine years ago with fantastic results. Just mentioning it as another possible solution to try to help get the midbass you're looking for. Although everything in audio is about compromise, so you'll loose lower end response pretty quickly from the mid's and there's probably some other trade offs. Sean would know best, he's got a lot more knowledge about this hobby than I do. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts and opinions on the difference the sound deadening and ported enclosures make as well. With all the detail you tend to include it should definitely help us all understand what you're lacking and where in the sound you're looking for. BTW Sean = ///M5 just in case you were wondering.

[pascalc 0]

Psychoacoustics are a bitch, the "sound" experience is solely dependent on the recordings being used.

What part of metal is most important to you or most lacking with what you currently have? What do you want the system to do better? Tons of ways to skin any cat, but doing it the way that best suits your needs would be my goal.

Since you used to play in a band and covered some legendary bands, I'm sure you have attended quite a few metal shows as well so you will know what I'm talking about...I've attended quite a few shows both outside and inside, and for me, my most memorable show is seeing Lamb of God headline a few years ago in a small arena. The sound was so LOUD and CLEAN, every bass drum kick and other low note percussions were felt in your chest and seats, the bass guitar shook the entire arena and the vibrations were felt in the floor/seats (you could "feel" that bass guitar string vibrating the arena), the guitars alike and sounded crisp and edgy. Nothing like I ever experienced at other shows, maybe the arena acoustics played a factor, who knows....(and yes seats, no more pits for me since my major motorcycle accident, I'm lucky to have both my legs and be able to walk today!).

Since I have a family now, working full time as a network administrator and required to do OT every second or third weekend so my time nowadays is more precious and I can't attend as many shows as id like but I still make an effort to go see at least a couple of shows a year whenever possible (attending an outdoor two day metal festival this summer, can't wait!!). Essentially, I wanna feel like I'm at a show when playing my system in my car, brings back the memories and keeps me content with this " indescribable need/some kind of adrenaline or something" I have that seems to be fulfilled when attending metal shows. I'm sure you and many metal heads know exactly the feeling I'm describing...

As it stands, I can turn up my system to the highest volume, it gets real loud to the point where you can't even speak with anyone in the cabin as you have to yell for anyone to even notice your talking...at that volume level (max level tuned), the sound is very clear that I want to keep turning it up louder (because it doesn't "feel" loud) so I can feel the instruments bass but the volume is at max! My system lacks the midbass/subbass to feel that thump in my chest and in my seat along with more sub bass to "feel" the bass guitar strings vibrating....

I hope I described as best as I can what I'm looking for! I'm really curious to hear what you have in mind for me...

[pascalc 0]

OP, I gotta say you've got to be one of the most thorough posters I've seen in awhile. The amount of detail and information just isn't seen as often as it should be on here, you should be proud.

I don't know what Sean's feelings are on the subject but it's been my experience that building small sealed enclosures for midbass speakers can really help the output in the midbass range. Car Audio & Electronics had an article (both in the magazine and on their website at one time) about it too. I tried it right after reading about it in the magazine years ago with fantastic results. Just mentioning it as another possible solution to try to help get the midbass you're looking for. Although everything in audio is about compromise, so you'll loose lower end response pretty quickly from the mid's and there's probably some other trade offs. Sean would know best, he's got a lot more knowledge about this hobby than I do. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts and opinions on the difference the sound deadening and ported enclosures make as well. With all the detail you tend to include it should definitely help us all understand what you're lacking and where in the sound you're looking for. BTW Sean = ///M5 just in case you were wondering.

Alton, thank you for the comments! I enjoy being so thorough and usually take my time typing up my posts and then I re-read them before submitting to ensure the information I provide is thorough and easy to understand by all because I believe its the best way to getting the best advice/response to the information being provided. It's a good feeling when your searching for something on the web and find a great post with lots of detailed information on exactly the same thing your are trying to achieve. Being so thorough can have its disadvantages though, my girl frequently tells me I'm anal retentive because I always try to cover every angle before I make a move. Simply put, Id rather produce work in quality over quantity so my work pace is slower than most!

For the small sealed enclosures, that's good to know thanks! And I myself can't wait to build/test out the new enclosures and provide the results to all!

[///M5 2,833]

I figured the tactile response was missing...

So, can you fit an 8 or not? Where can we put your tweeters? How much install effort and eq'ing are you willing to do?

Oh, btw, the fixed 24dB slopes is a deal breaker for me. There are plenty of better options in processors though. First let's nail down drivers so that we can be sure you get what you need.

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

This is such a nice thread.

OP, you did an excellent job describing what you want.

I don't know you skill set with installing and tuning but I feel sure M5 will hook you up.

I am sure he appreciates the effort on you part thus far. I am going to keep my eyes on this post.