Mid-Bass Driver Selection

[Sencheezy 689]

 I can change xover points from my deck. The reason i say this is I run my midbasses at 80hz when I want to wail on them. Most of the time I have them crossed lower, BUT I also usually only have my sub barely on. (BTL 15") With the mids crossed at 80hz and a high ref level (horns anyone) I like them better crossed higher. Why you ask? First I don't care how stout you build a door, its going to resonate like crazy from the energy transfer of a 12" at 50hz at high volumes. Which kills the SQL. Secondly once I crank the sub up there is no need for the mids to play that low. I know every install and persons tastes are different but this at least gives you my subjective view.  The point i am getting at is I think the sacrifice you need to make is an easy one if you listen at the ref levels I think you do. 

 

That being said IF I already had the horns mounted the choice would be a no brainer. Get a pro audio driver and enjoy the head cracking midrange, and let the sub do its job. 

 

I love you J

[///M5 2,833]

One other thing to think about. No headunit is going to make the horns sound as they can. Need an aftermarket proc for that. Won't hurt your other pursuits either.

[KyleBrown 121]

One other thing to think about. No headunit is going to make the horns sound as they can. Need an aftermarket proc for that. Won't hurt your other pursuits either.

 

 

I'll agree with this too. 

 

 

 

 

Tuned in for the final result. Hope it turns out well. 

[Sencheezy 689]

One other thing to think about. No headunit is going to make the horns sound as they can. Need an aftermarket proc for that. Won't hurt your other pursuits either.

 

That will be the following agenda.

[///M5 2,833]

Beware, flexibility is addicting...but nothing is more flexible than a PC. Having a custom taper via biquad or stacked filters may net you more out of those horns on the low end.

[neo_styles 43]

As you asked off-forum, I'll make my two cents and, for everyone else, please take it as such. I'm an enthusiast among professionals and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

 

Here's one of the drivers I recommended to Senchez as it kinda bridges the gap between his desire for a large driver with the ability to extend high, all without swallowing his chances of having adequate mounting depth:

 

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/morel-caw938-9-woofer/

 

They should do okay mounted IB in the stock locations, but run as recommended (2 cubes sealed) may dramatically help with low-end extension. A 3rd order at 43Hz ain't too shabby.

 

What sucks about going SQ for you, Senchez, is it kinda betrays a lot of things you didn't have to think about when building a groundpounder. Primarily, that's whenever you have multiple drivers playing the same frequency (in the same airspace), it's very easy to get cancelation. This is particularly more true when those frequencies have a large amount of sound force, particularly with midbass and subwoofer relations. That's why running proper Time Alignment tends to produce such rich, tight midbass as you're not having out-of-phase signals swallowing up that amplitude. Be prepared, should you be looking for a midbass driver with ultra-low extension, to either spend A LOT of time working your TA to get them just in phase or, as some have done, carefully select your crossover points so the amount of information both drivers process is minimal without leaving any gaps. On this one, I say pick or choose. I thought TA was going to be the biggest bitch ever for me to work and, surprisingly, it's an absolute blast for me. Can't say it's going to be the same for you, though, as everyone is different.

 

Next point is that, at least as it's been preached to me ad nauseum since I started getting serious about this hobby, the real ticket to having that up-front bass is to have the largest midbass driver you can fit up front. Makes sense in theory, right? When you're watching music live, they don't put the speakers behind you or it'd be a giant smack to the back, not the chest, and throw off the whole idea. But what I found interesting over the last year is that, at least with enough SPL behind the music, it didn't matter how I was oriented in a concert hall as the effect was the same. So now you get the double-edge sword: pressurize the cabin enough with a sub stage to make it hurt from any angle and potentially screw up any chance of having meaningful midbass response or run your sub at a reasonably lower amplitude and let the midbass handle the majority of the information. The only fix for this would be to find a set of midbasses that could play at the same SPL as the subs, then tweets that would have the same SPL as the mids, and Bob's your Uncle now you're deaf. And therein lies why a lot of people tend to be underwhelmed with a SQ setup because, as stated, you throw a lot of wrenches into the gears when you start to pressurize a vehicle's cabin. Sucks because it works great in an outdoor venue or concert hall where it has a chance to decay. (tl;dr = no balls-to-the-wall sub stage, just get a bigger midbass without sacrificing top-end response).

 

Getting horns was a really smart choice. They like playing low without being overly harsh or fatiguing, but just because the equipment is rated to play down below 800Hz doesn't mean that you really should. Have you ever read about how you really don't need to TA tweeters in a setup? I know that I have and it didn't make sense to me until I saw Erin (bikinpunk on DIYMA) explain that, at the frequencies a tweeter is supposed to play, sound power is the determining factor over TA (meaning adjusting gains on the tweets is going to produce a more profound effect on the stage than trying to time align them to the mids). Does that mean that TA produces NO benefit? Of course not; just not as much as adjusting sound power. What am I trying to state in this wild tangent of a paragraph? That running your tweets lower throws them INTO that arena where you now have to be concerned with TA. You're reaching upper midrange territory and asking a tweeter trapped in a waveguide to represent it. Now you have a tradeoff of having enough power sent to the tweeter to produce reasonable output at that in exchange for far more than is necessary in the treble and upper treble regions (yes, techies, I came up with "upper treble" off the top of my head). Basically, let the mid be a mid and the tweet be a tweet, but a damn leopard can't change its spots.

 

Finally, take a look at what parts of music are represented by what frequencies in the spectrum. By trying to cross a tweeter down around 600Hz, you're running the risk of chopping up a large portion of the spectrum used to produce vocals and very specific instruments between two drivers, which is never bueno. Cutoffs at around 2K allow one driver to process more of that spectrum and allows you to better TA and EQ for a nice center stage. Some have even seen benefits of crossing even higher (as someone I know who's crossed over a pair of MLK165s close to 6KHz to ensure there's virtually no overlap between mid and tweet).

 

And, in a convoluted way of explaining things (which I'm sure the technical types here can dissect and make better sense of the the rest of the people here), I'm just saying that you can put your stock into a slightly smaller midbass and run the horns higher (around 1.5-2k). Those Morels would be a good start. Other smart choices, assuming you're willing to shell out the coin, would be:

 

Eton Symphony, http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/eton-8-200/a8-symphony-8-mid/bass-with-aluminum-former/

Peerless SLS, http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/peerless-sls-830667-8-paper-cone-woofer/ (though these will require a crossover realistically closer to 1KHz)

SB Acoustics SB23, http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb23nrxs45-8-8-woofer/ (W140 can tell you more about these, he runs the 6.5")

ScanSpeak Classic, http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/scanspeak-classic-21w/8555-00-8-woofer/ (though the 22W is the fan favorite, they're way above your budget and these are only slightly above)

-or everyone's favorite budget choice (HYPERBOLE!):

Silver Flutes, http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/silver-flute-w20rc38-08-8-wool-cone/ (and at this price, you could even get a pair of 6.5" and rely on cone area vice gratuitous power)

 

As for going 3-way Kyle, best of luck man. Those systems are a bitch to tune. I was almost going to do one myself and pussed out in favor of a 2-way. But don't let me stop you.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

As Neo stated it is a vicious circle in regards to matching the sound pressure levels of all the dedicated drivers. As everything is a compromise it's easy to tell the compromise car manufacturers and car audio manufacturers make. Which is let the sub do the work as the average person (ignorance is bliss) is less discerning and its easy to mount drivers the size that fits in the factory location.  But then you get someone like you or me that wants to have that front row of the concert sound AND feeling! That sub in your lap feeling AND with presence!!!!! EPIC MIDBASS!!!!!  

 

True large coned midbasses that reach high are hard to come by. Basically a HT sub woofer with some reach. Then factor in all the physics of sound waves and the limitations the car presents. Having to mount the big driver flat in door. Then cone size dictates how high you can play off axis. 

 

Also as stated before T/A is a must.

 

I don't know what you have for a sub or what style of music you listen to? Some styles of music really don't need a true midbass as that frequency range is simply not playing in the music.

 

As far as suggestions from someone that has done 10" and 12" HT subs in the doors with moderate success. If you really want to go that route do a 10 inch and be willing to have a xover setting you use when you are wailing on them. Same for the horns. easy peasy, lemon squeezy.  

 

TBH I would roll with 10" pro audio drivers IF I had horns as you can have insane reference listening levels.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

A few other things I wanted to add but had to run last night. 

 

I realize you are asking for SQ advice BUT there is a big difference between true SQ and just wanting to sound good when at retarded loud volumes. Make sure you are asking for the right thing.  As most of the SQ people on here will not recommend loud driver suggestions, but drivers with the best manners if you ask for SQ. If you just want to sound good at stupid loud levels then the same people will probably suggest a completely different driver. 

[neo_styles 43]

A few other things I wanted to add but had to run last night. 

 

I realize you are asking for SQ advice BUT there is a big difference between true SQ and just wanting to sound good when at retarded loud volumes. Make sure you are asking for the right thing.  As most of the SQ people on here will not recommend loud driver suggestions, but drivers with the best manners if you ask for SQ. If you just want to sound good at stupid loud levels then the same people will probably suggest a completely different driver. 

It's my understanding that he actually wants to compete in SQ with this setup. Correct me if I'm wrong, Senchez. If that wasn't the case, I would have recommended PA for him as well, but it looks like he's trying to do this legitimately.

 

Another note for you, Senchez...I understand that MECA likes to critique SQ cars just as much with the install quality itself as well as how they sound or RTA. Take that into consideration as you move forward in the build.

[Sencheezy 689]

Yes, I DO actually want to compete this season in SQ for the MECA organization. They do also out a lot of emphasis on the installation as noted by neo. The thing is, I'm not trying to win a world tittle, just earn a respectable score in their 0-100 scale, and there is also RTA.

[Thumpper 266]

going any bigger than a 8" in the doors will sound very warm and lack any good

mid range in the upper spectrum...you would need a 4" mid to fill the gap

not even mentioning the fact that a large woofer  in the door will require a $hAtLOAD

of sound deadening to hide the sound of krinking  body door panels

 

 

personally I would go with a pair of 6 1/2" in each door....lots of out put and enough midbass

to bounce your mirrors if installed corretly

[Sencheezy 689]

going any bigger than a 8" in the doors will sound very warm and lack any good

mid range in the upper spectrum...you would need a 4" mid to fill the gap

not even mentioning the fact that a large woofer in the door will require a $hAtLOAD

of sound deadening to hide the sound of krinking body door panels

personally I would go with a pair of 6 1/2" in each door....lots of out put and enough midbass

to bounce your mirrors if installed corretly

Whoa, hey man! I hope all is well sir. A big reason for me having the idea of a single large driver, was for output reasons. Being able to keep up with the 110db sensitive mini horns. Also, I was told that multiple drivers will result in poor imaging/staging? Any input in that regards?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

You will definitely need a sound processor of some sort if you are wanting a flat frequency response.  

 

What is the reference level (volume) they use at competitions?

[Sencheezy 689]

You will definitely need a sound processor of some sort if you are wanting a flat frequency response.

What is the reference level (volume) they use at competitions?

Moderately quiet. And yes, a processor will be put in place. This thread was created with the driver only in mind. Keeping it at that level will be easy. As reference, a shot in the dark, I believe it would be for me equivalent to 24/40 volume. So obviously I will need to have the flexibility of turning it down, the easy part, for competition. While still able to crank it at local car meets and for demo purposes.

[Sencheezy 689]

See, my whole thinking, at least from what I've read mostly on this forum and others. Is that you want the sound to come from a single source. So if I was running 3-way system, I would only have 3 pairs of drivers, and the same for a 2way system, I would only have two pairs of drivers.

[Impious 1,476]

Having the sound come from a single source is near impossible in any line of audio...car, home, etc. The closest thing is a coaxial or coincident design. But even with separate drivers and proper install/tuning you can create a cohesive soundstage, which is ultimately the goal. Everything is a trade-off....2way, 3way, coaxial/coincident, etc. you just have to know what those trade offs or compromises are and work with them or around them.

That said, a small 4" midrange is going to be useless and a hinderence in the type of system you are looking to create. High efficiency/high output and small cone area are polar opposites. If you were going to go 3 way you would want a larger diameter midrange....6.5" or even 8". Normally people don't use these large of midrange drivers in a 3way design because thy want the midrange to cover a wider bandwidth. But since you are using horns this isn't much of a concern for you, but output potential most definitely will be. In the midrange output is still determined by displacement, but since excursion is minimal it's almost exclusively determined by cone area.

But as with any other 3 way tuning will be more difficult and the system more expensive. So it's up to you to decide if you're willing to sacrifice your midbass for the simplicity of a 2 way design, to have the option of larger midbass drivers for the expense and complexity of a 3 way

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Sounds like you are going to need an "sq comp" setting no matter which midbass driver you pick. As sq comps seem to be so subjective and bias towards looks of the install. And what an RTA says is flat will most likely be way to sterile sounding to your ears. So why not focus on getting a driver that will add some color and warmth to the midbass for your regular use settings?

 

You are correct that creating the illusion of a single point sound source and good sound stage will be easier with a 2-way. As far as driver size and install go's understanding how the ear preserves sound and the sound waves interact will help you dial in the sound stage. Ask me to elaborate if you aren't grasping this part as its a long subject, but I am happy to give my input if needed?

 

So that just leaves output. Volume on the stereo means nothing to me as all music material is recorded at different levels. You plan on wailing on these when your not at an sq comp and the sq comp is at low volumes. You can tame a high efficiency/high output speaker at low volumes easier than you can get high output out of a sterile sounding speaker. Right? 

[Randal Johnson 544]

Most people seem to have some sort of missunderstanding about most competition Sound Quality vehicles ...

It's not that the vehicles will not get loud, but that there is SOO much pride in attention to details, quality install, so on and so forth ... they do not want to "crank" their systems up and somehow create rattles and have to tear their vehicles apart to fix ...

and they usually have their gains set so low that you do not hear any unwanted noises from the system ... Also, is normally why you see them running LARGER amplifiers for better dynamics and headroom ...

Some don't mind readjusting and goosing it up some ... but not much.

I know from first hand experience late nights before a big show on taking just about every pannel out of your vehicle just to find and fix a buzz or rattle ...

The least little bit of buzz or rattle WILL take the listener's attention off of the stage and image and que in on that discrepancy ....

I've almost got to the point to where I can take my truck apart and reinstall everything blind folded ...

See, my whole thinking, at least from what I've read mostly on this forum and others. Is that you want the sound to come from a single source. So if I was running 3-way system, I would only have 3 pairs of drivers, and the same for a 2way system, I would only have two pairs of drivers.

In Sound Quality ... No matter how you set your system up, It has to be designed to where you absolutely can not tell where your drivers are installed ... It should do nothing but give you a stage and image presence up and out on the hood of your vehicle ... So if you use multiple drivers setups, the more independant time alignment and phase adjustments you will need for your setup to give your system that stage and image presense you need ...

Now when you throw horns into the mix ... things can get difficult. Which is probably why you are gettting SOO many suggestions into the mix ...

Please look into this ... There was once 2 cars sucessfully run horns in their SQ vehicles ... and they had their midbass drivers (one had 12" drivers, the other had 10" drivers) behind the listener's seating position in the rear Quarter pannels of the vehicle (nothing in their doors) ... Wonder why that is ???

This may help you ... may not ... You just might find something that will give you an edge towards the goal you are shooting for ...

Edited January 13, 2014 by Cablguy184

[The Last Airbender 1]

Hey guys I am new to this place and hopefully will be around for. A while . However I am old school to audio. Sencheezys truck is going to be a high decibel SQ experiment for the simple fact in reality there is nothing quiet or subtle about a cannon shot or a Rock concert so why do SQ vehicles not pursue the same dynamic abilities ? I know buzzes and rattles but that's part of the Game nothing. Sucks worse than extraneous noise hunting lol also I have a vehicle I'm doing as well I will need input on. My car will be a lot more psycho acoustic application with TAD horns and 2 12 inch mid basses and 2 15 inch drivers. 6 total I have the guys at USD helping design stages but all input is appreciated.

[Impious 1,476]

Hey guys I am new to this place and hopefully will be around for. A while . However I am old school to audio. Sencheezys truck is going to be a high decibel SQ experiment for the simple fact in reality there is nothing quiet or subtle about a cannon shot or a Rock concert so why do SQ vehicles not pursue the same dynamic abilities ? I know buzzes and rattles but that's part of the Game nothing. Sucks worse than extraneous noise hunting lol also I have a vehicle I'm doing as well I will need input on. My car will be a lot more psycho acoustic application with TAD horns and 2 12 inch mid basses and 2 15 inch drivers. 6 total I have the guys at USD helping design stages but all input is appreciated.

A true SQ system has the dynamics necessary to accurately reproduce the source material. That means adequate dynamics to reproduce cannon shots/etc. One thing they don't have is an overbearing sub stage, which is where most people get confused into thinking the SQ stereo isn't loud. The other things they usually lack as Cableguy pointed out is a lack of rattles and buzzing, as well as lower than average distortion. Without those three indicators of when something is "loud", the stereo doesn't seem as "loud" to the ear. There's a common saying about a good SQ setup...you don't realize how loud it is until you go to say something to your passenger and you can't hear your own voice. The common indicators of "loudness" aren't there to trigger your brain into realizing just how loud it is.

Clark's Grand National, which I believe is still the winningest car in history, could do something like 130db full range.....to the SPL crowd that doesn't sound impressive, but 130db in the midrange will deafen you.

[Randal Johnson 544]

there is nothing quiet or subtle about a cannon shot or a Rock concert so why do SQ vehicles not pursue the same dynamic abilities

Most SQ vehicles have absolutely no problems with this ...

Don't believe me ?? Just have a seat in ole White Lightning ... I will be glad to que up some AC/DC "For Those About to Rock" for ya ...

Clark's Grand National, which I believe is still the winningest car in history, could do something like 130db full range.....to the SPL crowd that doesn't sound impressive, but 130db in the midrange will deafen you.

I agree with this ... Except for the "which I believe is still the winningest car in history" part ... and I believe that would be Mark Eldridge (the SQ Nascar) standing on top of that pedistal ... Edited January 14, 2014 by Cablguy184

[Sencheezy 689]

I spoke with John over at AE, and here is what he had to say. I believe this is the driver that I will be using. Great customer service and very informative company.

Hello,

 

The best 12" driver to get up to the 1KHz range is going to be the TD12M.  It is also the most efficient.  The only drawback is that it has only 6mm Xmax vs 14mm Xmax of our other drivers.  If you are going down to only 40hz though for an SQ system you should be fine with the Xmax.  This gives 105dB at 40hz at 1m modelled.  Your vehicle transfer function should be similar to my old bravada, GMC jimmy, or 4 runner I have measured.  All are getting in the range of 20dB cabin gain at 40hz.  That puts you in the 125dB range.  If you feel you need more, the TD12X is the next option with 14mm Xmax but it has a foam surround instead of the cloth so the upper end is not as smooth.

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/measurements/vehicle_TF/2002_olds_bravada_transfer_function.PNG

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/measurements/vehicle_TF/2001_GMC_Jimmy_transfer_function.PNG

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/measurements/vehicle_TF/2002_4_runner_mic_headrest_positioning.PNG

The TD12M extends up to about 5KHz quite cleanly.  On a 12" driver at 1KHz you are good to about 90 degree dispersion, +/-45 degrees.  As long as you can get both sides aimed within that window you should be pretty good.

https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se/ae-speakers-td12m

Here are the dimensions of the TD12M.  The apollo option adds 1/2" to the total depth.  Because these are solid pole with phase plug you don't need to worry about any space behind the motor.

http://www.aespeakers.com/pdfs/TD12-dimensional.pdf

Best Regards,

John

[Shogen 325]

They look awesome but 300 for a mid bass is steep for my blood.

[///M5 2,833]

"Best" ruined the whole response IMO

[Sencheezy 689]

"Best" ruined the whole response IMO

I believe he was referring to the products that he offers has my initial email had requested.